Changes to the system

[burglekutt]

"What j_dean was pointing out is the last thing you'd need to improve the original 14 quests would be to boost the heroes further artificially."

That's why I invented the "Black,White,Skull" Ability for Brawl/Str/Dex &Move... to lower the obscenely high power of weak characters like the Wizard & Goblin who, as it stands currently are just as strong as the Barbarian & Gargoyle when it comes to hand to hand.

If you can accept that weak characters should not have the same powers as strong characters,then you will recognize the need to boost your self up, or At least recognize that they should be measurably different

I should back up for a second & ask YOU as Game Master to justify the Goblin having the same Strength as the Barbarian, or how the Wizard has the same Strength as the Gargoyle? I would really like an answer to this.

I've seen this issue mentioned in other threads, so I know it's here.

[mitchiemasha]

to lower the obscenely high power of weak characters like the Wizard & Goblin who, as it stands currently are just as strong as the Barbarian & Gargoyle when it comes to hand to hand.

Hand to hand is extremely rare and they're not equally as strong. Don't forget about Body points. These aren't lives or such and it doesn't mean the Barbarian has armour skin. Their toughness is still segregated in game. Whilst equally likely to kill a monster, if one survives, its retaliation is a much greater threat to certain heroes over others. it's also another reason why giving monsters extra skills, like Fimir Tail Bash: Counter attack if not killed when attacked adjacent. Nothing to a Barbarian, lethal to a Wizard.

Going back to our Character Creation and how some others do it. The Barbarians 3 attack dice is from a +1 melee attack combat bonus so he would have 2 in hand to hand unlike the other heroes. When the barbarian buys a Broadsword adding the +1 to that too. The barbarian has 2 mind, 1 for use of weapons, 1 for +1 combat bonus. A short sword gives him 2 Ad6 +1Ad6 combat, his starting 3. This system mathematically works out perfectly with all the heroes.

When creating Dwarfs. I like to give them stand fast as a trait. +1Cd6 if no movement. Adding in little traits using the existing stats system is a much better way that introducing a huge clunky mechanic that has no logic across the board. The combat dice work because, the resulting image means the same for all.

[burglekutt]

" Hand to hand is extremely rare and they're not equally as strong"

Hand to hand is rare because the game was not designed for hand to hand combat & that's why I invented my own to make it work.

" like Fimir Tail Bash: Counter attack if not killed when attacked adjacent. Nothing to a Barbarian, lethal to a Wizard."

I did not know a Fimir could attack like this by the way. It is not mentioned in the origional game. But I'm up for options!

"  The Barbarians 3 attack dice is from a +1 melee attack combat bonus so he would have 2 in hand to hand unlike the other heroes. When the barbarian buys a Broadsword adding the +1 to that too."

This is unknown to me & not mentioned in the origional game.

" The barbarian has 2 mind, 1 for use of weapons, 1 for +1 combat bonus. A short sword gives him 2 Ad6 +1Ad6 combat, his starting 3. This system mathematically works out perfectly with all the heroes."

Again this is unknown to me since I'm going off the origional game.

" When creating Dwarfs. I like to give them stand fast as a trait. +1Cd6 if no movement. Adding in little traits using the existing stats system is a much better way that introducing a huge clunky mechanic that has no logic across the board. The combat dice work because, the resulting image means the same for all."

Not familiar with "Stand Fast" as that is not mentioned in the origional game.

I am now seeing why there is a miscommunication between us. It seems you all are using rules that are divergent from the origional game which will explain our problem. I must be caught up to date on what advanced rules you all are playing with so that I can get on the same page. It will be helpful when I figure these out.

[mitchiemasha]

Hand to hand is rare because the game was not designed for hand to hand combat & that's why I invented my own to make it work.

So are your heroes often with out weapon? If not why would the choose a weaker attack? The issue is fixed with seeing the Barbs as +1, simples (explained a bit more further down).

I did not know a Fimir could attack like this by the way. It is not mentioned in the origional game. But I'm up for options!

it can't it's 1 of the unique skills given to each monster to spice it up a bit. Like skeletons have diagonal attack due to the huge scythe. Goblins MAM.

This is unknown to me & not mentioned in the origional game.

It's not mentioned but if you study the stats, it's there in balance. Some play it as he has the broadsword to start (likely true) others play it as the barbarian has +1Ad6. As in the starting weapon, A shorts sword is 2Ad6, the wizard doesn't have 1 so is on 1Ad6, the Elf does so 2Ad6, with out a weapon the Elf is 1Ad6, the Barbarian has +1 so is on 3Ad6 with his weapon, 2Ad6 with out. That might seem complicated in me explaining it's simply there, at the table it flows, how it is.

(Edit: Now the barbs gets a 4Ad6 when buying the broadsword (not originally intended) but it fixes the issue of other characters becoming as strong as him when they buy the weapon, making him quite a weak character later on. The +1Ad6 is his character skill. Again... the mods selected fix many issues on the surface not so obvious. Don't forget as it's a 3Ad6 weapon he's more likely to break it due to how damage works, which fit's perfectly as he's more powerful).

Again this is unknown to me since I'm going off the origional game.

The barbarian has 2 mind, it is the original game. If you use the system all the heroes add up to the same... 16, it's hidden in the design of the characters. Body + Mind = 10. Each spell set requires 2 Mind and so does disable traps, but each thing added up as 1 = 16, including use of weapons.

Barbarian: "B8M2:10" "Weapons Y:1(A2D2:4)5" "Skill +1A:1" = 16
Dwarf: "B7M3:10" "Weapons Y:1 (A2D2:4)5" "Skill Traps:1" = 16
Elf: "B6M4:10" "Weapons Y:1 (A2D2:4)5" "Magic:1" = 16
Wizard: "B4M6:10" "Weapons N:0 (A1D2:3)3" "Magic:3" = 16

A player doesn't need to know any of that but i use it to balance characters in creation.

Not familiar with "Stand Fast" as that is not mentioned in the origional game.

yeah i posted a link in 1 of your threads. These are simply the extra character traits people can pick to add more spice to the game. With out over complicating it with bloatware rules.

It will be helpful when I figure these out.

HERE'S THE LINK I POSTED Remember each mod has very specific and important reasons to being there, although there's no mention into the details why. Some of them picked from very old and long threads. With fine tunes/tweaks to wording to accommodate how players, try to play, expect to play. Like the give mechanic incorporating to/from, passing/adjacent. It's no good stopping the game every 5 seconds to explain they're doing it wrong "no this is how it works", not fun.

If you click the underlined blue text, they're are usually very valuable links. Especially for us fond adventurers.

[burglekutt]

" So are your heroes often with out weapon? If not why would the choose a weaker attack?"

The quests rarely allow players to go without weapons, which explains why "Brawl/hand to hand" mechanics are/have always been so thinly laid out in this game. Mechanics for GameMasters to make their own hand to hand  quests do not exist. That is why I have brought my own until a better hand to hand system arrives.

I gotta say that if you're from Europe using a non USA version, that that could explain why I am not familiar in the slightest with the rules you are mentioning.

What is a +1Ad6? Or 2Ad6? Or 4Ad6? Does that mean "Attack die(is that the same as Combat Die)"? What does the 6 stand for?

You see how off base i am with you? I am not understanding you, but the rules you present sound cool I think.

Also, this is not just a game you play through for a few weeks & put away till you get a new crew together when you're bored. This game haunts you for decades. It is almost, ALMOST the most perfect boardgame ever made. Besides myself & a few others I knew, this game demands/beggs/taunts you to try to perfect it, & sadly that might not be possible. I will do my part though GDammit:)

[mitchiemasha]

d6 is pretty standard, such as d20, d10, d8, d4 etc. So yes, for the sake of space i abbreviate to

Combat die: Cd6
If in Attack: Ad6
if in Defence: Dd6
Move dice: Md6

Very important for fitting as many mechanics as possible in such short spaces. In the full Tome this would be explained but not on the simple mod sheet.

Also, this is not just a game you play through for a few weeks & put away till you get a new crew together when you're bored.

Totally I've spent my entire 30's working on fine tuning HQ mods. My job entitles listening to a constant stream of new music, this frees me up the time to visit forums and read, type, work on ideas, whilst listening. I should be painting, building but i enjoy this interaction more.

[Daedalus]

. . . Im basing this rate for just the first 14 quests &no more. I would change this rate latter if i ever get my hands on the numerous game additions. . . .

Have you checked out the North American Home Page? All of the Hero Quest expansions can be downloaded from there, ready to print. Also, the HeroQuest Compatible Miniatures topic has tons of proxy suggestions.

. . . That's why I invented the "Black,White,Skull" Ability for Brawl/Str/Dex &Move... to lower the obscenely high power of weak characters like the Wizard & Goblin who, as it stands currently are just as strong as the Barbarian & Gargoyle when it comes to hand to hand. . . .

. . . I should back up for a second & ask YOU as Game Master to justify the Goblin having the same Strength as the Barbarian, or how the Wizard has the same Strength as the Gargoyle? I would really like an answer to this.

I've seen this issue mentioned in other threads, so I know it's here.

As you've noted, the NA Instruction Booklet of Hero Quest lacks an unarmed combat rule (as does the EU Rules of Play.) As such, figuring the strength of monsters and Heroes is like comparing apples and oranges:

". . . A monster's attack strength is based on its natural abilities and does not depend on a weapon." (The 2 Monster Actions: Action 1—Attack, p.22)
". . . They reflect the Hero’s physical strength. The Barbarian is the strongest with 8 points; the Wizard the weakest with 4 points." (3. Character Cards, Body Points, p.7)

It's worth noting that both expressions of strength utilize a variable number, Monster AD or Hero BPs. Look no further than Quest 6 of the NA Kellar's Keep, The Great Citadel, for an example of how BP strength is used with dice:

A) This door has been locked for many years. To open the door, a Hero must stand next to it and roll 2d6. If he rolls LESS than his starting number of Body Points, the door will open. If he fails to open the door, his turn ends.

A similar method is used with the room G portcullis in Quest 10 of The Mage of the Mirror, though current Body Points are used instead.

The EU expansion, Against the Ogre Horde, features combat dice and starting attack value found on the character boards instead:

Stone Doorways
Stone Doorways are large slabs of rock that must be pushed out of the way using brute force before you can pass. To open one of these doors, a Hero must roll a number of Combat Dice and score 2 Skulls. The number of dice he throws depends on what character type he is: the Dwarf and the Elf both roll 2 dice, the Barbarian rolls 3 dice. The Wizard cannot open a Stone Doorway. . . .

This EU use of variable dice better reflects your stated preference for combat dice, though more than one die may be used. Then there is unarmed combat. . .

Like stone doors of AtOH, the EU version of Legacy of the Orc Warlord has unarmed combat default to the Heroes' starting attack value of each character board: B3, D2, E2, W1. I'd say even though strength is better accounted for between the Heroes, it makes unarmed combat too easy.

A toned-down solution could be to keep the EU unarmed-attack values but allow monsters to defend with white shields against such attacks. The stronger monsters would benefit more than the weaker ones--this makes sense to me in a brawling situation.

To compliment this unarmed combat houserule, monsters should also have a similar unarmed strength. As Heroes already defend with white shields, a monster's regular attack strength needs to be reduced by one instead. A Goblin's would attack 1 AD like a Wizard, while a Gargoyle attacks with 3 AD like a Barbarian.

The NA Quest Book also includes unarmed combat in Quest 6, Legacy of the Orc Warlord. Until they find their equipment, all Heroes attack with just one combat die--very basic. My untested unarmed-combat houserule is based off of this but allows the Barbarian to reroll a failure to hit and requires the Wizard to reroll a successful hit. [Monsters again defend this with white shields. -edit] Any monster, on the other hand, always uses its regular attack strength but must reroll any successful hits while unarmed.

[burglekutt]

After finding this sites "Additions" section I see many flaws with allowing hero's to advance during the first 14Qs. I've also seen even better ideas for advancement but again they are for players going WAY beyond the game &past the expansions where it might make sense to do so. I'm all good here.