Your thoughts on possible complications for houserules

[Terrorbillen]

I have been lurking for some time and have recently begun playing HeroQuest again. First of all, I want to thank you guys here at the Inn. The amount and quality of the content here is absolutely fantastic!
When i went through the Quest Book, a couple of the quests had me wonder if they were designed under an earlier ruleset or something.
Since I assume you guys have been playing this game way more than I have, I hope that you can give me some clarification into the possible complications of some house rules that I am considering:


1) Houserule: Heroes must stand adjacent to a piece of furniture to include it in a search for treasure

Picture from Lair of the Orc Warlord in the base set.
Placing a trap next to a treasure chest is useless if you can search the whole room standing anywhere you like. The design really seems like the heroes are intended to stand next to the treasure chest. With the above rule in play, the trap would become a factor in the game instead of just sitting in the quest book never to be sprung. I also feel that the furniture would be more actively included in the game and the heroes would have more reason to move around the map. But i am thinking there might be some later treasures that may be unobtainable?


2) Houserule: Heroes cannot pass the same square twice in the same movement action

Picture from the Wizards of Morcar/Zargon magical reference tile
Seeing the rules written as they are, I simply cannot fathom how any hero would ever get hurt by a fireburst trap (unless they only have 1 move left and move into the room, which the heroes in my games really never are supid enough to do). Using the rules from first edition EU - that heroes cannot pass the same square twice - however, would give this trap a possibility of being useful. It also brings more to the table in terms of tactic descisions (see next houserule below).


3) Houserule: Heroes have to move into rooms to see their contents

Picture is from Melar's Maze in the base set.
The above room had me thinking: What would the heroes gain from finding the secret door? As I see it, they would merely gain the advantage of all og them entering the room at once (which would only be possible if the hero that goes first is the one to open it). Combining the proposed houserules 1 and 3, the heroes would gain a tremendous advantage of avoiding three orcs, orcs which really could be considered a downright trap as a hero could not move out again until his next turn effectively taking 2/3 hits.


I really feel that most of the quests were designed with these rules in mind
What are your thoughts on them? Have you played by any of them? Do they bring any complications to the table that I am unaware of as of now?

[sajungzak]

Welcome.

1) Many people choose to play this way for the reason you described. I do not. I think it would slow down the game needlessly and possibly cause the heroes to miss something important unless they search every piece of furniture in every room. This might get tedious.

They already have three different searches per room. I'd be more inclined to go the other route and combine searches for traps and secret doors into a single action, perhaps it could be called scouting?

That said, its not a bad houserule. Any missed treasure could, and if it's important, should be "penciled" into the next quest somewhere.

2) Yep, thats how its played in the first EU version. It was changed along with quite a few other things in the US version. Try searching this forum for "EU vs US rules comparison."

The fireburst trap has also been discussed at some length.

3) I'm not sure that I understand what you mean here. If I am correct, what you're thinking of is the same way my father interpreted LoS (line of sight) when I was a child and he played Zargon. When a door was opened, the heroes could only see LoS from the square just outside the door. Even within a room, objects were only placed when they became visible. Only the first monster in a corridor could be seen, so we never knew how many were there until they were all dead.

At the time we didn't think it was a houserule, but it worked ok. Took longer. Maybe that's why I appreciate the simplicity in the rules as written today. The basic mechanics are solid, and the fiddly details can be interpreted in different ways or suited to fit your particular style, and its still HeroQuest!

When I'm Zargon and a secret door is found all the contents in the next room/corridor are immediately revealed, even if it is the result of a treasure search. I guess it is kind of a trap since those monsters are probably going to attack a hero or two first chance they get. Hopefully it was the last hero and they can gang up on him right away.

[knightkrawler]

1) I have this as a rule in my full system HQ - Heroes & Villains (link below in my signature), but additionally, a search for treasure in furniture is an own action with its own search deck.
For vanilla HQ spiced up with houserules, your rule is as good and purposed as it gets.

2) As sajungzak has pointed out, this actually was a rule in EU 1st editions, and it made a lot of sense as a mechanic. The mechanic vs. realism issue has been discussed at length elsewhere, also in regards to other game props, but I personally tend to sacrifice realism and naturalism in order to solve problems inherent in the game, so I'm with you on that houserule. Or rather, I would do it the same way you did, hadn't I countered the problems otherwise (double doors, double wide corridors, and so on).

3) My rules specifically say that once a hero gains line of sight to an area (every room and every corridor section from corner to corner is an area per definition), its contents are set up. That means, a hero opens a door, stays outseide a room, and yet I set up its whole contents. Same in a corridor section when a hero walks around a corner. Even if a monster blocks line of sight to monsters behind itself, all of them are set up. So I don't agree with saj's dad, but I counter the same problem: The Phallic Phalanx. Double doors and double corridors, as well as my rule that once a hero has opened a door and ended their movement and the area has been set up, one monster from that area may move and attack immediately outside Morcar's turn, just to spice things up a little.
But if I wouldn't have the combo of above solutions, I would definitely use your suggested houserule, which does address the phallic phalanx problem in combination with your houserule #2.

All three rules make complete sense, as far as I'm concerned, and I don't see any problems with them.
Prepare for countering the argument "Why wouldn't a hero be able to leave a just opened room again if he doesn't like the contents? It's just so unrealistic!" by others, however.

[Big Bene]

As sajungzak has pointed out, this actually was a rule in EU 1st editions,

Terror is aware of that:

Using the rules from first edition EU - that heroes cannot pass the same square twice - however, would give this trap a possibility of being useful.

And methinks Sajuk knows that Terror knows , as indicated by the following terminus technicus:

Yep,

Also, this rule totally made sense.
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The mechanic vs. realism issue has been discussed at length elsewhere, also in regards to other game props, but I personally tend to sacrifice realism and naturalism in order to solve problems inherent in the game, so I'm with you on that houserule.

So much this!

Prepare for countering the argument "Why wouldn't a hero be able to leave a just opened room again if he doesn't like the contents? It's just so unrealistic!" by others, however.

Well, I think a certain "realism" is necessary to keep the atmosphere and make HeroQuest what it is. This is not a contradiction to the general statement that the simplicity of the rules is directly proportional to the fun (and genius) of the game.

Every part of the rules has two sides to it:
- The way it works as a rule and interacts with other rules to make a game (it's "syntax", so to speak)
- The way it represents a feature of the game world (an object, person, action, quality etc.) to make an adverture (it's "semantics").

In comparsion to the "real" events "inside" the fictional game world, every rule, even in a full-fledged PnP roleplaying game, is a heavy abstraction and simplification. It merely represents such a feature.

Searching a room without having the miniature to move around of course doesn't mean that the hero in the game world gains instant knowledge by merely stating that he "does a search", but represents the action of him actively searching every corner, ending in the same place as he started (that's one of the reasons why searching is not possible while monsters are around). It's just a simplified rule to make the game faster.

Just as well, the movement of the figures by dice is a representation of the adventurers making their way through the dungeon in the "reality" of their ingame world.
Of course, they do not walk by taking counted steps of equal length (each of wich would have to be over one meter wide, equalling the space a combattand takes in a meele engagement to fight freely).
They move slow or fast, according to the condition of the floor, to the neccessities of silence and carmouflage, or the features of the surroundings, which require more or less thoroughly exploration, etc. Of course they move for and back in the process, and may cross the same spot more than once inside the game world.
All of this is represented in the roll of the dice which determines how far they can get in the end. The "realsitic" ability of the heroes in the dungeon to go for and back is already covered in the movement throw of the figures on the gameboard.
This overall movement of the figure however is not allowed to cross the same square twice in one turn, to prevent "tactical" movements like going into a room and leaving it if monsters are present or practically avoiding the effect of some traps, which would by themselfes lead to "unrealistic" effects in the gameworld (the monsters would not just let him go etc.).

Of course, one could make a philosophical stand, that, as much as the "real" reality is concerned, the figures on the gameboard, being moved by the rules are the heroes in the dungeon. But to resolve such concerns of "realism" vs. "game mechanics" in an everyday gaming situation, it is good to draw a distinction.
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In fact, the original HQ does a very good job in balancing simplenes and effectivenes of the rules against realism and atmosphere.
The rules are very generic, not allowing for "special" tasks, but rules covering more detailed imagination of the gameworld (like the ones typical for a Pen and Paper game) are introduced when needed by the menas of quest notes, cards, and special rules in expansion packs. Furniture can't be moved and doesnt play an acrive role in the game? Well, there are quite some times, when furniture gets a more active role in the questnotes, and moving a piece of furniture by special rules inthe quest notes, if this contributes to the given quest, would be totally inside the scope and style of the original HQ.

[Terrorbillen]

Thank you guys. I am happy that you will take the time and give some great replies. your thoughts are really appreciated!


KnightKrawler, I’ll look forward to going through your HQ - Heroes & Villains and hopefully get some inspiration from how you have dealt with the problems!


Sajungzak, the tediousness will really be something to consider, as I have already taken pity on my heroes and have allowed them to search for both secret doors and traps in one turn.
Clarification of example #3:
I may have rushed the description of rule #3 so here is one for clarity: When I look through the quest book, a lot of times, I see three monsters standing around a door ready to gang up on whoever steps through it. To me, this seems like a quest design choice (like an orc trap you might say).
If we imagine playing by the proposed house rules where 3) heroes must enter the room to see its contents and 2) they cannot backtrack, any hero entering the example room would end up just inside the door within reach of 3 orcs. (Something a hero would be happy to find a secret door so that he might avoid!)
If we, in comparison, play by the rules as written, any hero opening the door would see the three orcs, and never dream of entering the room. Instead, he would position himself just OUTSIDE the door enabling himself to take them on one by one. If he found the secret door, he would find himself in the EXACT same situation - stand outside, take them on one by one.


Big Bene, I totally agree on your take on realism vs. mechanics though I have never really had any problem with it being unrealistic that a hero cannot step on the same square twice. If the game is to be considered realistically, every turn must be happening nearly simultaneously. If he enters a room with a monster standing ready, why wouldn’t it attack him before he can get out? It would simply make no sense for the “real” monster to wait for the hero to take his full turn before attacking. I thereby see the house rule as MORE realistic than allowing (the extreme situation) of a hero rolling 10+ to enter a room, circle a monster and walk out the door again before the monster has any chance of raising its weapon.

Searching a room without having the miniature to move around of course doesn't mean that the hero in the game world gains instant knowledge by merely stating that he "does a search", but represents the action of him actively searching every corner, ending in the same place as he started (that's one of the reasons why searching is not possible while monsters are around). It's just a simplified rule to make the game faster.

Are you, by the above, thinking that I should have had the player searching for treasure (standing just inside the door) in example #1 fall into the pit trap?

[knightkrawler]

I have already taken pity on my heroes and have allowed them to search for both secret doors and traps in one turn.

Another good decision.

[Big Bene]

I have never really had any problem with it being unrealistic that a hero cannot step on the same square twice.

There are people who would, believe me...

Prepare for countering the argument "Why wouldn't a hero be able to leave a just opened room again if he doesn't like the contents? It's just so unrealistic!" by others, however.

If he enters a room with a monster standing ready, why wouldn’t it attack him before he can get out? It would simply make no sense for the “real” monster to wait for the hero to take his full turn before attacking.

That's what I meant saying

is not allowed to cross the same square twice in one turn, to prevent "tactical" movements like going into a room and leaving it if monsters are present ... which would by themselfes lead to "unrealistic" effects in the gameworld.

Are you, by the above, thinking that I should have had the player searching for treasure (standing just inside the door) in example #1 fall into the pit trap?

By all means, no!
It was just an example of how a simple game rule (declaring a "search") represents a complex activity in the "gameworld" (searching the room, including all neccesary movements).
Keeping in mind that the very purpose is "simplification", it would contradict the meaning of the rule to take into account every possibility that could take place in theory .
If I would be to Include the trap in my above reasoning of how the search rule represents the "real" search of a room by a hero,
the phrase

actively searching every corner,

means that the hero does a throughout search of the room, of course moving around quite much, "visiting" all parts of the room. It does not mean that he literally has to cross every square of the room. These squares don't exist in his world. They are part of the gameboard, relevant only to the players and figures.
Of course, if there is a trap in the room, there is a good chance the hero would trigger it during this kind of search. But then again, how should this be represented in terms of rules? Assuming we still want to allow the player to search a room without moving the figure, we would have to include an abstract chance of triggering the trap in the process.
- We could aim for strong "realism", making a dice throw based on the number of traps divided by the total number of squares in the room.
- We could simplify this by just choosing a fixed chance (e.g. 1-2 at 1D6) for every trap.
- Or we could simplify even further, assuming that the probability is less than 50%, and just generally don't trigger traps by a search action.
The last option is just as legitimarte as the others, and the way the authors of the original game did it.

[Figomurphy]

Are you, by the above, thinking that I should have had the player searching for treasure (standing just inside the door) in example #1 fall into the pit trap?[/quote]

If it was my game I'd place the character in question into the pit (that he fell into while exploring the room).

That'll learn him.

Also figures must be infront of furniture/chests to check their contents. This means greedy, loot hungry players bust into rooms even if they only have 2-3 moves left. Eager to get to the loot before other players. More often than not setting off that pit trap.

Welcome to this fantastic site.

[sajungzak]

If we imagine playing by the proposed house rules where 3) heroes must enter the room to see its contents and 2) they cannot backtrack, any hero entering the example room would end up just inside the door within reach of 3 orcs. (Something a hero would be happy to find a secret door so that he might avoid!)
If we, in comparison, play by the rules as written, any hero opening the door would see the three orcs, and never dream of entering the room. Instead, he would position himself just OUTSIDE the door enabling himself to take them on one by one. If he found the secret door, he would find himself in the EXACT same situation - stand outside, take them on one by one.

I counter this in the way I control the monsters. Nowhere does it say that a monster has to attack right away. I play tactically. If they line up at the door, I surround the square just inside the door. If I can, I move after attacking so another monster can move then attack. Also, this forces the hero to move before attacking on his next turn so they can't employ the same tactic against me.

Am I describing this well? I just woke up so I may need to clarify later...

Edit* oh, and if they search for treasure while any traps are still active, the closest trap is triggered and the mini is moved to that square. Assumed movement while searching.

[Goblin-King]

1.) I'm totally convinced that searching a room and opening a chest are two entirely different actions.
The room is searched for in a general fashion. The chest must be stood next to and the words "I open the chest" must be uttered.
Searching the room and chest for traps is however the same general action.
Being able to search the room has nothing to do with the obvious treasure chest being hidden. It's just a matter of the quest designer having the option to hide something special in the room or just letting the player draw a card.
In my opinion every single room can be searched for treasure. The chests are just an additional bonus - and often a trap!

2.) No pass through the same square 4 life bro!
No, it doesn't make sense. Yes, in real life a person could step back and forth to his heart's content.
But I find it to be a really good gameplay mechanic. Especially combined with 3.)
Heroes can actually fall in some traps or ambushes that would be impossible if they could just peek in and out of rooms and behind corners.

3.) Another great rule. Again, it's just works great as a gameplay mechanic.

All in all three great houserules, I'm not even entirely convinced are even houserules at all.