Kellar's Keep... so hard to get through...

[knightkrawler]

BP and spells are recovered. Just no trips to the armory.

[Daedalus]

Ahh, stocking up on potions BEFORE starting the Quest Pack. That makes sense. We never played it that way when I was a kid, but it makes sense.

It also makes sense that they players would have to be able to recover BP and spells between quests (even though it makes no logical sense... how are they getting a chance to rest?).

I imagined that between the wooden exit door and the iron entrance door there was an intervening safe zone where the Heroes recouperated. That's old-school D&D logic for ya.

Found at the first paragraph of p.4 under Playing Kellar's Keep:

... As in the game system, Heroes are returned
to full strength (all Body and Mind Points are
restored) between Quests.

(In case it was thought others were merely offering opinions.)

I was thinking that one of the potions sold in the Alchemist Shop was Potion of Healing, so the quest pack expected them to purchase potions between quests to heal. Nope, haha.

Because my current group was going to be 6 Heroes when we started, I had to create a Ranger and a Cleric. The Ranger and the Wizard and Dwarf have dropped out (well, the Dwarf never actually even started, but that's another story) so with the Cleric... it might be possible for the Heroes to make it through the ten quests without recovering BP. The Cleric has three different healing spells, and I suppose I could let him recover his spells between quests, and also give them the option of buying Potions of Healing along with the other potions in Alchemist Shops which I could locate ever few quests or so. What do you guys think? I kind of like the idea of them doing the whole pack without innately recovering HP between quests. Plus it will give them something to spend their crazy amounts of gold on. We are only on quest 12 in the base game though, so I have a bit of time to figure it out.

Sounds cool. Let us know how it turns out. If this is any help, here's a thread link related to the healing potion bonus included in Against the Ogre Horde, using NA guidelines (see the last few entries).

[chaoticprime]

Just started KK with Dave. He said he enjoyed it, but he says he's looking forward to a quest pack with new or different characters/monsters. I've tried telling him we won't get any new monsters for 20 more quests, but I think he keeps forgetting. But maybe I could use some of the DnD minis I bought for a few of the boss-like monsters instead of the Chaos Warlock figure. Hmm... *peruses KK quest book* Well... The Fimir in Quest 4 (The Dwarven Forge) knows a spell... I could use a DnD monster for him mayhaps. Quest 5 (The Hall of Dwarven Kings) has the stronger skeleton monsters, I could use different monsters for them. There's a Chaos Warlock in Quest 6 (The Great Citadel), I could definitely make a different character for him. There's an Orc Captain in Quest 7 (The Eastern Passage) and you're supposed to use the special orc with the notched sword, but I could always use a scarier looking orc. Nobody special in Quest 8 (Belorn's Mine) except the gargoyle, but I like using that figure; it's already big and scary enough. Quest 9 (The East Gate) has the shape-shifter, which probably shouldn't be a special mini because it cycles through all the various monsters, but the Chaos Warlock Borokk could be a special guy. And nothing really special in the last quest (Grin's Crag) except for the special guardian gargoyle, which, like I said before, I probably won't change because I already like the gargoyle figure.

Hmm... now that I've glanced over the quests, it's not too bad of a pack. Yes, it's mostly going from point A to point B and looting all the rooms for treasure, but there are some interesting traps, monsters and story. Like, in the Hall of Dwarven Kings, you sorta get to learn about the, uh, old Dwarven Kings. And the quest before that (The Dwarven Forge) is a neat little room that pretty much only the Dwarf can walk through (unless you have the Fire Ring, of course). As a matter of fact, this could almost be considered the Dwarf Quest Pack... Wonder which one would be a good Wizard Quest Pack... maybe the Wizards of Zargon... *shrugs*

I also kinda like how the rooms and corridors are arranged in this pack. For instance, corridors seem to be much shorter than corridors in the main system. And some corridors become little treasure rooms or small graves. Anyhoo, it's kinda clever.

Hopefully it'll still hold Dave's interest for 9 more quests. We'll see how it goes.

You can buy Dwarf Skeleton DDM for the quest with the dwarf skeletons. They're pretty common. In fact, I probably have a dozen or more.

[bastianbux]

I blame Keller's Keep for killing the interest of the group I was playing with. We got through the base game just fine, but halfway into Keller's Keep things sort of fell apart.

I'm starting with a new group soon of completely different players, but we're starting out with the Japanese quests instead of the regular base game. If we get to Keller's Keep, I am going to have to have to heavily change Keller's Keep. Maybe add a LOT of new monster types besides the Troll I mentioned I'd added.

[SirRick]

I've been really lookng forward to playing KK. My friends and I have never played through any of the expansions. I like the quest where monsters keep appearing on the board every turn. It seems to give the heroes a sence of urgency.

I think the quest should be played in a sequence with no shopping trips. I imagine between each quest to be abandoned tunneels and such so i assumed the heroes would be able to find places to rest as they progress. I think a possible good idea for shopping could be the heroes run into a dwarf merchant or a small group of explorers hoping to get a foothold in the fortress and reclaim it someday. This "colony" could be encountered between quests about halfway through the quest book or so. This would give players one chance to buy things, and they would have to spend wisely because they might not get another chance later.

[cynthialee]

The problem with the no shopping trips ruling is that the heroes won't have the moxie to make it.
If your group is used to playing with the alchemist shop then they are further hamstrung.

Now the obvious fix for this is to have the heroes very well equipped before the enter the keep. A large collection of potions, throwing knives, spare weapons and perhaps some spare armor.

I like the no shopping as it is more realistic, but without the store in between quests the heroes may be heavily hamstringed. Especially in a game where there are house rules in play and the chance for death or equipment loss is greater than 'by the book'.

[SirRick]

Yeah, thats a good point. The fimir with the rust spells could cause a lot of damage if it is lucky enough to survive long enough. If the group had no spare weapons that leaves only the Spirt Blade, Orc's Bane, and Wizard's Staff leaving one character to fight bare handed for the rest of the quest book.

[clmckay]

We played them with no shopping. To offset some risk of death and lost equipment, we made a treasure card that offered an encounter with someone selling armory items and potions.

Quite frankly, it wasn't even close to needed. I don't think it's all that difficult that a group who made it through the base game will have troubles.

Now.....RotWL, where you lose all your gold, now that's a cheap shot, especially if they can't shop in between quests. I do change that.

[lucasdp]

So, on the topic of KK being not the most interesting quest pack, a thought occurs to me:
Are there any specific quests that are particularly boring, and maybe could (should?) be skipped entirely?

[Anderas]

The spiral stairway for example... the heroes have to cross the board several times.

I would just take the freedom, read the quest carefully and add a tweak here and there to make them more interesting. It's not that they don't have something new each quest. It's more.... don't know. Rooms filled with monsters, that just take a while to clear out...

If you take a look at some storytelling techniques, you'll find that the witch lord often employs the hero's journey (bottom, right) or the mishap start (top right). Also, with the ambush i can see "In media res", the one in the center.... start with the action, then tell the story later. If the entire quest book is organized like the petal: Tell several stories, but come back to the topic all the time.

Kellar's keep seems to know only the drama (top left). The overall questbook organization is like that, and each single quest as well. That can get tiring. Maybe it's that. But i am no expert game designer, so can be that i'm wrong.



GimmeYerGold posted once a great article about Zelda. Between all the rest, it is stated there that the players get addicted if they can learn something and then get a chance to display their new skill later. That's missing somehow in Kellar's Keep. In the Witch Lord it happens all the time - how do i solve the riddle with the disappearing doors? How do i kill the death mist?