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Electric Universe

Guests may gather here for General Discussions about almost any Topic. NO BRAWLING!
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Certain topics have become known to cause friction among passionate members. We kindly ask that topics relating to these subjects be taken outside the Inn to Websites that specialise in those subjects.

Thus far, these topics are: Recreational Drugs, Religion and Science.

Re: Electric Universe

Postby cornixt » March 31st, 2015, 10:01 am

cynthialee wrote:When I as a simple commoner look at the history of science and how things that do not fit the accepted theories they are mocked and derided, then I look at the arguments for the gravitational theory and the electric theory of the universe my gut tells me the electric universe model is likely right. The gravitational leaning dudes are reacting the same way as the proponents of the Phlogiston theory did when Oxygen was first brought up.
The thing that doesn't make sense is how vitriolic the rhetoric gets when people support the status quo. But we are just talking theory in both directions. Just because someone else has a different theory and does not respect your theory is not an attack on you personally. It is an assault on a theory, not an assault on a person.

Just be aware that Gold Bearer does not explain anything on here in a way that makes any sense, nor give references to anyone else that does it better. Beyond "certain things in space look similar to electrical effects", which may be true but not because the universe is based on electricity instead of gravity, it's pretty much just a weird conspiracy theory rather than radical science. His arguments don't even follow a recognisable structure, they just jump around all over the place, I don't even know what that last list of attachments was meant to show.


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Re: Electric Universe

Postby whitebeard » March 31st, 2015, 11:30 am

cornixt wrote:
cynthialee wrote:When I as a simple commoner look at the history of science and how things that do not fit the accepted theories they are mocked and derided, then I look at the arguments for the gravitational theory and the electric theory of the universe my gut tells me the electric universe model is likely right. The gravitational leaning dudes are reacting the same way as the proponents of the Phlogiston theory did when Oxygen was first brought up.
The thing that doesn't make sense is how vitriolic the rhetoric gets when people support the status quo. But we are just talking theory in both directions. Just because someone else has a different theory and does not respect your theory is not an attack on you personally. It is an assault on a theory, not an assault on a person.

Just be aware that Gold Bearer does not explain anything on here in a way that makes any sense, nor give references to anyone else that does it better. Beyond "certain things in space look similar to electrical effects", which may be true but not because the universe is based on electricity instead of gravity, it's pretty much just a weird conspiracy theory rather than radical science. His arguments don't even follow a recognisable structure, they just jump around all over the place, I don't even know what that last list of attachments was meant to show.


The real issue here is that this is a forum for a board game. We have very few people who know a lot about physics and a whole lot of people who do not. In the pub "Guests may gather here for General Discussions about any Topic." and this presents the perfect place to bring up your topic of choice and claim to be the expert or to advocate on behalf of one. Unless you are well versed on the scientific method, you really are not qualified to have an opinion and your opinion must be "scientist in the field have evaluated this possibility and found it to be lacking."

Cyn. Lets say you rented an apartment and the inspector condemned the building and you had to move out for your own safety. But the building owner insisted everything was okay and everything he said made sense to you (knowing nothing about building codes and structural durability)… would you move back in? Clearly inspectors have been wrong in the past, but who are you going to trust?

The scientific community is not like it was 100 years ago. Sure there are still big egos, but it is also filled with aspiring young minds who want to show everyone else how they are wrong and leave there mark on the field and the world. If there is a chance this stuff is right, then several teams at well respected universities would be doggedly pursuing it and designing tests to prove it fills some known gap in our understanding of physics. The fact is they are not. Could this be the idea that everyone is overlooking? Yes. Is it remotely likely that this idea has merit? No.

Same goes for climate change deniers, vaccine/autism linkage, lunar landing hoaxers, lunar colony observers, etc. Please don't put on the tin foil hat. Move out of your condemned building. Let the EU debate begin and end in a physics forum.
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Re: Electric Universe

Postby cynthialee » March 31st, 2015, 12:22 pm

This is not the first place I have encountered this theory. I have spent a lot of time (for a layman) reading the various arguments and considering them against what I know.
The EU theory wins me over.

The science community always over reacts when new theories challenge the status quo. But this is wasted effort. Instead of formulating experiments that could resolve the debate, the establishment rails against the new theory and its proponents in a fashion that is ridiculous. Instead of pointing to papers and scientists the other side does not respect, do an experiment that could disprove the theory.
If the EU proponents are wrong it is just a dead end on the science trail much like Spontaneous Generation. But if they are right, then it would behoove the well placed scientists who are pushing against the idea to prove it or debunk it with science instead of speculative papers and pointing to established belief. The establishment scientists are in a much better position to benefit from new science. They already have the expensive labs and are networked with the 'right people'.
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If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
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Re: Electric Universe

Postby el_flesh » March 31st, 2015, 1:16 pm

Actually, Cyn, the Science community LOVES it when a new hypothesis that is proven, can overthrow the status quo. Look at the amount of excitement Hubble generated and continues to generate. Same for the probes on Mars. Same for finding the Higgs Bosun. Same for Dinosaurs NOT being cold blooded overgrown lizards.
There is solid, TESTABLE Science behind those revolutionary discoveries. There is nothing, NOTHING behind the EU hypothesis (and that is a generous term). I call it the ecklectric univarse for a reason; which was stated without smart assedness and with polite simple matter of fact at the top of the page by cornixt and whitebeard.
If you want to endorse EU, at least admit that you have NO understanding of Physics beyond high school - and that is clearly more than mr. drop-out Physics expert.

What you are doing in endorsing it is the equivalent to Jenny McCarthy's idiotic antivax crap. She's an eeediot because she acts out of fear and ignorance instead of listening to experts; and now thanx to her celebrity status, many more children get preventable infections and some of them DIE. Measels, an almost eradicated disease, has strongly sprung up again thanx to morons like her.

I don't see the eckletric univarse having such a devastating effect, but who knows what adherence to provably crackpot bullshit will do? You don't have to listen to actual Physics experts if you don't want to; but you do it at your own peril and loss.
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Re: Electric Universe

Postby whitebeard » March 31st, 2015, 1:32 pm

But we can all agree that this is not the place to discuss physics, right?
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Re: Electric Universe

Postby cynthialee » March 31st, 2015, 2:57 pm

oh, my Goddess! I simply say that the EU guys have convinced me more than the GU guys did and now I am akin to Jenny McCarthy!?
That is a severe disservice to me and a minimalizing of the damage Jenny has done to society.
If a bunch of people think EU is right and this turns out false, no damage is done to society or science. When people listen to Jenny, people die.
So nice try at demonizing me for having an opinion that is counter to your own.
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Re: Electric Universe

Postby Anderas » March 31st, 2015, 3:29 pm

Gold Bearer wrote:Let's see.

A -5 point starting credit.
:) I'm off to a good start.

1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false.
This one is completely unfair. That like saying 1 point for every point that you make that disagrees with the established model when that's the whole point. Besides the EU now has more than a "wide" enough support for the standard model to rack up an insane amount of points.


Well, maybe you get two or three points here but this is not the biggest weight :)

2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous.


Well, here you may amount to 4-6 points. Things like posting a picture of a matter stream around a sun and stating it would never be possible in the existing theories - without proof... but even these I wouldn't count.

3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent.
And another 50, 000 here.
At least here you get not so much as there is no statement that you tried to prove.


5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful correction.
And now surely brakes the world record on this index.
Here we count 4 or 5 statements that already have been disproven - let's take 20 points


5 points for using a thought experiment that contradicts the results of a widely accepted real experiment.
I haven't done that.
You did in several places. I don't count, ok


5 points for each word in all capital letters (except for those with defective keyboards).
:) Oh dear Mr Flesh. :lol:
0 here

5 points for each mention of "Einstien", "Hawkins" or "Feynmann".
Maybe once, but only in response to someone else doing the same. That doesn't count.
happens to everybody

10 points for each claim that quantum mechanics is fundamentally misguided (without good evidence).
No.
here you are. 10 sound points for you. You state repeatedly that the forces are working in a different strength order than stated by the repeatedly measured science and you present no evidence.

10 points for pointing out that you have gone to school, as if this were evidence of sanity.
I pointed out that I droped out. -10 points = -15
You did state you you have been in the Highscool; although I wouldn't give you points on the crackpot index for that - nearly everybody was in school.


10 points for beginning the description of your theory by saying how long you have been working on it. (10 more for emphasizing that you worked on your own.)
- 10 for emphasising that's it's not my theory and I didn't work on it at all?
Agree, you have +/- zero here :)

10 points for mailing your theory to someone you don't know personally and asking them not to tell anyone else about it, for fear that your ideas will be stolen.
No.

10 points for offering prize money to anyone who proves and/or finds any flaws in your theory.
No.
no. Agree for both. :)

10 points for each new term you invent and use without properly defining it.
No.
You did. It was the main reason I was entering the discussion, thinking "ok this is easy". You get 30 or 40 points here for using "Plasma" "Electrical Currents" and other terms in the wrong context and with wrong meaning - not once or twice but systematically to prove your theory.


10 points for each statement along the lines of "I'm not good at math, but my theory is conceptually right, so all I need is for someone to express it in terms of equations".
No.
You repeatedly state that you won't post a link, won't calculate because you're not good at math, but you like to describe your theory in your own words. The ten points are sincerely and honestly earned.


10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is "only a theory", as if this were somehow a point against it.
Not really. I said that there are very few laws and lots of theories because you can't really prove a model right.
Here you are. 10 Points for you.


10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn't explain "why" they occur, or fails to provide a "mechanism".
No.
Yes. You state in every second post that "Gravity can't explain that" Ten points earned.


10 points for each favorable comparison of yourself to Einstein, or claim that special or general relativity are fundamentally misguided (without good evidence).
I have great evidence that gr doesn't work but am a avid supporter of SR (despite so many EU supporters including the main physicist trying to argue against it, which makes me cringe), but okay, =10 points = -5
They work both very well. It's just if the scope of Quantum Mechanics and gr/sr are overlapping, Quantum Mechanics is right. No reason to dismiss the rest. 10 Points for you.


10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a "paradigm shift".
Crap, 5 points.
Yes, 10 more.


20 points for emailing me and complaining about the crackpot index. (E.g., saying that it "suppresses original thinkers" or saying that I misspelled "Einstein" in item 8.)
:) No.
Agreed.


20 points for suggesting that you deserve a Nobel prize.
No.
Agreed.


20 points for each favorable comparison of yourself to Newton or claim that classical mechanics is fundamentally misguided (without good evidence).
No.
At every second corner you stated Newton was proved wrong. Well, not really. In the scope he was able to measure, he's right. He still is, if you build mechanical machines, like, for example, cannons, or cranes. 20 Points for you.


20 points for every use of science fiction works or myths as if they were fact.
No.
Bosnian Pyramids / Pyramids around the world connected by an invisible network. 20 Points for you.


20 points for defending yourself by bringing up (real or imagined) ridicule accorded to your past theories.
No.
ok

20 points for naming something after yourself. (E.g., talking about the "The Evans Field Equation" when your name happens to be Evans.)
No.
ok


20 points for talking about how great your theory is, but never actually explaining it.
Definitely not.
Yes. It is what everybody of us says all the time to you. You say something, post a photo, that's it. No explanation, no answer to questions. 20 points,


20 points for each use of the phrase "hidebound reactionary".
I've never even seen or heard anyone using that phrase.
agreed

20 points for each use of the phrase "self-appointed defender of the orthodoxy".
No, but I like it.
me to. :)


30 points for suggesting that a famous figure secretly disbelieved in a theory which he or she publicly supported. (E.g., that Feynman was a closet opponent of special relativity, as deduced by reading between the lines in his freshman physics textbooks.)
No.
maybe not, but... (skip the next four)

40 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike.
Oh, arse! Ah, not my work, and not really a conspiracy so much as a broken system. I think 20 points is fair. That puts me on 25.
40 well deserved points.


40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on.
No.
agreed


40 points for claiming that when your theory is finally appreciated, present-day science will be seen for the sham it truly is. (30 more points for fantasizing about show trials in which scientists who mocked your theories will be forced to recant.)
I wish but I'm not naive enough to think it will actually happen.
no, agreed.

50 points for claiming you have a revolutionary theory but giving no concrete testable predictions.
It's provided lots of testable predictions and they continue to be accurate. This is in fact the most convincing aspect of the EU model.
Not a single thing has been predicted and proven true. Some things have been "re-predicted" but a lot of theories do that. If you have the choice between 10 Theories "re-predicting" the same things, all in the same way, you decide for the most simple one. Relativity and Standard Model today. 50 points for you.

[/quote]


That makes 230 Points, more or less. Maybe there are 10 more or less.


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Re: Electric Universe

Postby knightkrawler » March 31st, 2015, 4:03 pm

whitebeard wrote:But we can all agree that this is not the place to discuss physics, right?


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Re: Electric Universe

Postby whitebeard » March 31st, 2015, 4:24 pm

knightkrawler wrote:
whitebeard wrote:But we can all agree that this is not the place to discuss physics, right?


Please don't spoil my fun now.


Sorry KK. You're absolutely right! This is way better than "A Laugh a Day". They actually filled out the Crackpot Index! 230 points!!!! :lol:

But I'm still really bummed about Newton being proved wrong. I foolishly invested my education and training in the area of Newtonian mechanics and when my employer finds out I'll be out of a job. Before long it'll be "Excuse me, Mr. KK, sir? Did you want fries with that?" :lol:
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Re: Electric Universe

Postby el_flesh » March 31st, 2015, 7:28 pm

Cyn JMcC could just as easily be advocating the ecklectrikal univarse instead - and be just as dead wrong, only without sharing responsibility for deaths. You could be advocating antivax for the exact same reason you gave about thinking EU "makes sense".
You * might * want to learn a little Physics first. There are certainly free University courses that you can audit online.

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3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent.

And another 50, 000 here.

Orders of magnitude off. Not surprising, given it's a high-school DROP OUT.
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