Borin's Armor clarification

[The Road Warrior]

Borin's armor works exactly as written, and does not stack with the shield or the helmet. There is absolutely no reason to ever assume that the game applies unstated rules to play, when there is definitive precedent for how the rules are applied. If it does not specifically include wording for what it may be combined with, it may not be combined with anything. Its a board game, not a role-playing game.

Also, it does not add 4 to starting defense, it allows you to roll 4 defense. If you are wearing it, you may roll 4 defense dice. The rules will state that it allows you to roll extra dice.

But the wording on both the shield and the helmet card say "one extra combat die in defence" (UK cards), so yes, you do stack them.
Also, consider the wording on the original chain mail equipment card. (UK 1989)

"Chain Mail allows you to roll three combat dice in defence"*. .

So by your argument is it not possible to use a shield or helmet with chain mail?

Personally I'm one of those weird people who won't let you use a helmet with Borin's Armour, and I know a lot of people disagree with that. Really it is up to everyone to decide how they choose to play the game as plenty of the rules are open to interpretation.

*For some strange reason the NA version reworded these cards and probably should have reworded Borin's Armour to +2 defence dice to match.

[chaoticprime]

Borin's armor works exactly as written, and does not stack with the shield or the helmet. There is absolutely no reason to ever assume that the game applies unstated rules to play, when there is definitive precedent for how the rules are applied. If it does not specifically include wording for what it may be combined with, it may not be combined with anything. Its a board game, not a role-playing game.

Also, it does not add 4 to starting defense, it allows you to roll 4 defense. If you are wearing it, you may roll 4 defense dice. The rules will state that it allows you to roll extra dice.

But the wording on both the shield and the helmet card say "one extra combat die in defence" (UK cards), so yes, you do stack them.
Also, consider the wording on the original chain mail equipment card. (UK 1989)

"Chain Mail allows you to roll three combat dice in defence"*. .

So by your argument is it not possible to use a shield or helmet with chain mail?

Personally I'm one of those weird people who won't let you use a helmet with Borin's Armour, and I know a lot of people disagree with that. Really it is up to everyone to decide how they choose to play the game as plenty of the rules are open to interpretation.

*For some strange reason the NA version reworded these cards and probably should have reworded Borin's Armour to +2 defence dice to match.

The UK rules have nothing at all to do with the US version. On the Armory it clearly says what the chain mail can be combined with.

[The Road Warrior]

The UK rules have nothing at all to do with the US version. On the Armory it clearly says what the chain mail can be combined with.

Really!!?
That's a very dismissive and narrow-minded response!

I was simply pointing out that when the game was originally released in Europe that the wording for all 3 armour cards was consisitent, and the advantage of owning Borin's Armour clear. It seems that when the NA game was released the following year the wording for chain mail & plate armour was reworded, most likely when the equipment cards were condensed into the armoury reference card. When these were rewritten it looks like Borin's Armour was not rewritten to match.

However if you insist on only looking at what is written on your cards may I ask if your Borin's armour says the following.

"Unlike normal plate mail, this mysterious, ultralight metal does not slow down it's wearer" - (NA cards available for download here)

This clearly implies that Borin's Armour is equivalent to plate mail without the movement penalty!

Someone is clearly missing the point that as a Quest Treasure, Borin's Armour should give the Hero that possesses it an advantage. Under your interpretation Borin's Armour becomes a handicap, limiting the Hero to four defence dice, where any Hero can purchase chain mail, a helmet and a shield relatively quickly and defend with five dice.

But finally the most important thing I said was

Really it is up to everyone to decide how they choose to play the game as plenty of the rules are open to interpretation.

So if this is how you choose to interpret this particular quest treasure then that is entirely up to you.

[chaoticprime]

The UK rules have nothing at all to do with the US version. On the Armory it clearly says what the chain mail can be combined with.

Really!!?
That's a very dismissive and narrow-minded response!

I was simply pointing out that when the game was originally released in Europe that the wording for all 3 armour cards was consisitent, and the advantage of owning Borin's Armour clear. It seems that when the NA game was released the following year the wording for chain mail & plate armour was reworded, most likely when the equipment cards were condensed into the armoury reference card. When these were rewritten it looks like Borin's Armour was not rewritten to match.

However if you insist on only looking at what is written on your cards may I ask if your Borin's armour says the following.

"Unlike normal plate mail, this mysterious, ultralight metal does not slow down it's wearer" - (NA cards available for download here)

This clearly implies that Borin's Armour is equivalent to plate mail without the movement penalty!

Someone is clearly missing the point that as a Quest Treasure, Borin's Armour should give the Hero that possesses it an advantage. Under your interpretation Borin's Armour becomes a handicap, limiting the Hero to four defence dice, where any Hero can purchase chain mail, a helmet and a shield relatively quickly and defend with five dice.

But finally the most important thing I said was

Really it is up to everyone to decide how they choose to play the game as plenty of the rules are open to interpretation.

So if this is how you choose to interpret this particular quest treasure then that is entirely up to you.

A helmet, chain mail and a shield should be better than Borin's Armor, as they require greater effort to procure. You are placing false emphasis on the Artifact, when there is no precedent to, based on other Artifacts. You have to buy equipment, with limited funds, whereas you are simply handed Borin's Armor. I play rules as written, like you are supposed to. If you want to make up your own rules so that you can feel special, that is your priority. Just don't confuse other people into doing the same.

Also, I will reiterate that the UK version of the game has nothing to do with the US version regarding the clarification of the rules. The US was very deliberately changed so that the rules were effectively more playable. I also fail to find see how your calling me narrow-minded as sensible. You're advocating cheating, because you feel that a free Artifact should be better than hard-won equipment. I don't know how often you've actually played the game, but I have played it enough times to know that, between the three non-Wizard heroes, gold does not accrue very fast at all and priorities usually fall into buying a battle axe first. Therefore, Borin's Armor's actual benefit is that you can spend limited resources on weaponry first, although it would be possible for at least one character to have rounded up enough scratch to have better defense dice by virtue of actually wearing more armor.

You're missing the point that it is a board game, not a role-playing game, and no evil wizard player with an ounce of respect would change the rules to benefit the competition. And, if you still want to reference assumed value, the card itself already shows a helmet on it. Explain that away with an assumption.

[TMU]

the card itself already shows a helmet on it.

That's a good point, I wouldn't let the player use helmet with Borin's armour. Shield is of course useable with it.

[The Road Warrior]

A helmet, chain mail and a shield should be better than Borin's Armor, as they require greater effort to procure. You are placing false emphasis on the Artifact, when there is no precedent to, based on other Artifacts.

I don't think I am. Consider the benefits of all the other quest Treasures.

Orc's Bane - Allows you to attack twice in one turn if you are attacking an Orc.
Talisman of Lore - increases your Mind Points by 1
Spirit Blade - Attack with 3 dice or 4 when attacking an undead monster. note you may use a shield with this item
Wand of Magic/Recall - Allows you to cast 2 spells during your turn instead of 1.
Spell Ring - Allows you to cast 1 spell twice during a quest.

These quest treasures all enhance the Heroes abilities, I believe this actually sets a clear precedent!

You have to buy equipment, with limited funds, whereas you are simply handed Borin's Armor.

Borin's Armour is a unique item that only one Hero may possess. Surely for this reason it should be better. As I said earlier, anyone can save up gold and buy items from the armoury.

If you want to make up your own rules so that you can feel special, that is your priority.

Also, I will reiterate that the UK version of the game has nothing to do with the US version regarding the clarification of the rules. The US was very deliberately changed so that the rules were effectively more playable. I also fail to find see how your calling me narrow-minded as sensible.

I am not making up my own rules. I am presenting the European rules in an effort to answer the original question. By looking at the rules as they were released in other areas it is possible to gain insight into how a rule should have been handled. This is useful if you are not happy with the rules you have been presented with and is my reason for calling you narrow-minded, as you refuse to look past what is written in your own set of rules.

You're advocating cheating, because you feel that a free Artifact should be better than hard-won equipment.

No I am not, I am presenting the European rules in an effort to clear up this anomoly in the NA version.

I don't know how often you've actually played the game, but I have played it enough times to know that, between the three non-Wizard heroes, gold does not accrue very fast at all

The amount of gold may have been changed when the NA version was released as I have never had any trouble acruing gold when playing this game. I am currently playing through the base system with my family and the Barbarian, Elf and Dwarf have bought everything of use from the armoury and all have a very healthy stash of gold (approx. 900 gold each!). We only have the final quest left to play.

Therefore, Borin's Armor's actual benefit is that you can spend limited resources on weaponry first, although it would be possible for at least one character to have rounded up enough scratch to have better defense dice by virtue of actually wearing more armor.

I will concede that this may be the intended advantage of Borin's Armour as it is used in the US version. However I believe it is far more likely that the rules for chain mail and plate armour were rewritten to match the rules for the shield and helmet when the equipment card was condensed into the armoury reference sheet. Looks to me like someone dropped the ball by failing to rewrite the rules for Borin's Armour.

You're missing the point that it is a board game, not a role-playing game, and no evil wizard player with an ounce of respect would change the rules to benefit the competition.

You are missing the point that it is only a game. If you are unhappy with the rules as they are written then why shouldn't you change them? As long as everyone playing the game with you agrees to the change. Isn't that the whole point of this forum?

And, if you still want to reference assumed value, the card itself already shows a helmet on it. Explain that away with an assumption.

I already did here.
This is how we have chosen to play the game.

And finally...

You have still failed to answer this.

"Unlike normal plate mail, this mysterious, ultralight metal does not slow down it's wearer"

This clearly implies that Borin's Armour is equivalent to plate mail without the movement penalty!

[Sjeng]

People, I'm going to stop this discussion, as views from all sides have already been presented on Borin's Armour, and both sides have their plusses and minusses. In the end, it's up to the Evil Wizard player to decide what rules or interpretations thereof will be used. The rules actually state that the Evil Wizard player may use his/her own imagination and ideas, this is actually encouraged. Don't ask me to show you where this is written, it has been mentioned plenty of times on this forum.

So in the end, it is entirely up to you how you play. It's pointless to keep on discussing this if your opinions are different, and both parties cannot be convinced otherwise by the other. Let's keep it nice! No need for name-calling.

[bastianbux]

I really can't make up my mind. I honestly feel like 4 (Borin's Armor) + 1 (shield) + 1 (helmet) is a bit of an overkill. It renders the Hero basically invincible without any chance of dying. I might use the "the helm is part of the armor and thus part of the 4, so no stacking the armor) rule, but I see no reason why a shield cannot be permitted. 5 is a lot for defense so early... but ah well.

[Goblin-King]

But then Borin's Armor has no real purpose. You might as well just buy a mail armor and a helmet.
Equipment that can't be used in conjunction with each other are clearly stated.

The difference between "grants 4 defense" and "+2 defense" is only relevant if some character had a base defense different than 2.
But they should really just have made all defense equipment grant +.

With all that said... I still agree that Borin's Armor is in fact OP.

[knightkrawler]

I think Borin's Armor just being a substitute for chain mail plus helmet makes sense for those HQ versions that came with cards.
The Equipment on the cards was supposed to be available in the respective number, i.e. 1 (except for helmet and shield in the first printing).
That means only one chain mail armor for one hero.

Borin's armor then offers the chance for a second hero to be equipped that way.
Since, I think, we almost all play with an unlimited number of equipment pieces being available (which is one of the perks of the improved NA version and its armoury),
we have to tweak the rules and the card texts. This interpretation is anyone's task and there are bound to be variants.

I see all of you presenting your opinions having points.
What I don't like is people trying to tell others in this thread that they may not tweak rules and present them here.
That's just plain wrong. What is this forum for, anyway, if we can't present our own ideas here?

I mean, that's basically the mission of this forum and everything that's happened for 5 years and counting.