• Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Discuss new Rules for HeroQuest.

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby Big Bene » April 21st, 2013, 3:53 pm

knightkrawler wrote:On a side note: I was told that a longsword is basically just too heavy to poke around, so for its reach there's only the arm length, whereas with a short sword it's arm length plus sword length. That's how it was explained to me by that particular person who allows diagonal attacks with a short sword, but not with a longsword.
I still find it rather curious why he overcomplicates matters.

Well, I can't find this particulary true. I do LARP, I have my brown belt in Ken Jutsu, I have done show fighting, I did some training in European sword fighting (after George Silver).
Of course it depends on your personal strenght, but a longsword is definitely not too havy to "poke around". Mostly you swinging it, trying to hit your opponent with (the end of) the blade, but this is just because you can deal more damage and also protect yourself ehind the sword better this way. If you want to poke around, you can do so for pretty long time (at least I can, and I'm not overly trained, a mediaval profesional fighter was in any case stronger).
Have a look ;)


Rewards:
Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Created a Hot Topic. Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Big Bene

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1401
Images: 11
Joined: September 30th, 2010, 5:23 am
Location: Siebeldingen / Germany
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby knightkrawler » April 22nd, 2013, 6:10 am

That's how I imagine. And that's my reasoning for not keeping short sword 2 AD and longsword 3 AD diagonal.
Thank God I have a second opinion from another swordsman... |_P
HQ - Heroes & Villains (Dropbox-download link) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jgj0kzsys9w38oh/AAA_VEHx6vMv4HKRX7IiOWTFa?dl=0
Feedback http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3560
Gallery http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1972&hilit=knightkrawler+gallery&start=200
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've found a way of paying off old debts:
Always make more promises than you can break.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges. Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Cheese Baron
knightkrawler
The Furry Blue Derailer

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5825
Images: 27
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 2:26 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby CeoDruidechta » April 27th, 2013, 4:35 pm

ScooterinAB wrote:1) What do people think about letting short swords attack diagonally? This would give the weapon a little more purpose, as well as give the armory a less linear progression (with choice of weapons being more than just more dice to attack). However, it kind of renders the staff moot, since 50 gold would be the difference between being able to use a shield or not.


Sorry for commenting so late, but from the standpoint of realism, it doesn't make sense to let a shortsword attack diagonally. Arming swords (what the game calls 'broadswords') have greater reach than shortswords, and are just as suitable for thrusting. If a shortsword can attack diagonally, then so should a broadsword.

Historically, shortswords were preferred when fighting in tight spaces. The Roman gladius (a shortsword) was used in tight formations by soldiers with large shields. In the age of sail, the cutlass (a single-edged shortsword with a basket hilt) was used in boarding actions, where combat might go below decks. But in a simple game like HQ, subtleties like this are hard to model.

One thing that might make shortswords more desirable would be to make spellcasters more common, and occasionally have them cast spells like Rust, Thieving Wind, and Twist Wood. That would make a shortsword worth considering as a backup weapon. I like to have a caster in every quest (even if it's just a goblin with a couple of spells), though I do it mainly to make mind points more important.

ScooterinAB wrote:2) What do people think about letting Wizards use short swords? This is a bit more of a heretical leap, but bear with me. We know that HeroQuest and Warhammer are in bed with one another. Unlike their D&D counterpart, Warhammer Wizards are all packing heat. Many Wizard models (including the champ from Warhammer Quest) are all holding a sword. I've even seen converted HQ Wizards holding swords. I don't recall seeing anything in Advanced HeroQuest that restricts Wizards as heavily either. The benefit here is that Wizards have something to buy, and can fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I've never found that Wizards scale as well, end game, as the other heroes. The negative here is that, like the above suggestion, staves basically become useless. It also encourages Wizards to get into the fight, which may not be a good idea.


I've never playtested it, but I doubt it would cause problems. Wizards would still be substantially weaker in combat than the other heroes.

And one thing I've been thinking about is that, realistically, I don't think it makes sense for staff damage to be so low. Although staves are not lethal enough to compete with spears as battlefield weapons, martial artists generally regard them as highly effective weapons. They are held in a loose, mobile grip that allows powerful swings and agile parries. I think it would be reasonable to increase staff attacks to 2 dice. That makes them more powerful than daggers, but less so than arming swords.
User avatar
CeoDruidechta

Goblin
Goblin
 
Posts: 17
Joined: March 24th, 2013, 5:26 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby Kaiyanwang » October 2nd, 2013, 5:53 am

Since I started with UK rules (Italian) for me the SW attacking diagonally was "normal". I see the issue in this way: attack diagonally could be not only a matter of reach but of maneuverability too. The SW is short but a skilled user can deliver a good affondo, a lunge to reach the enemy. And is easier to deliver blows around the door corner I guess.
User avatar
Kaiyanwang

Skeleton
Skeleton
 
Posts: 23
Joined: March 17th, 2013, 12:25 pm
Location: Svizzera
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby chaoticprime » October 2nd, 2013, 6:59 am

When your characters die, they drop their stuff. If they drop their stuff out of the sight of your (former) allies, it is totally lost. When you make a new character that is a dwarf or elf, they start with the short sword. That's what the short sword is good for. Its for being replaced. If it was a better weapon, it would not need to be replaced.


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Participated in a Miniature Exchange. Zealot Miniatures: Twisting Catacombs Kickstarter Backer
User avatar
chaoticprime
Practically Lives Here

Swordsman
Swordsman
 
Posts: 1939
Images: 0
Joined: February 10th, 2013, 3:38 am
Location: Kansas City
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby knightkrawler » October 2nd, 2013, 8:11 am

Right. The spear fills out the 2 AD diagonal niche.
HQ - Heroes & Villains (Dropbox-download link) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jgj0kzsys9w38oh/AAA_VEHx6vMv4HKRX7IiOWTFa?dl=0
Feedback http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3560
Gallery http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1972&hilit=knightkrawler+gallery&start=200
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've found a way of paying off old debts:
Always make more promises than you can break.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges. Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Cheese Baron
knightkrawler
The Furry Blue Derailer

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5825
Images: 27
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 2:26 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby chaoticprime » October 2nd, 2013, 2:11 pm

knightkrawler wrote:Right. The spear fills out the 2 AD diagonal niche.


Regarding this and the NA version--just because there is a logical gap where the rules could include a 2 AD diagonal-reaching weapon, does not mean you should include one simply because its possible. Assigning trappings to mechanics that the rules could tolerate, is what Pathfinder does.


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Participated in a Miniature Exchange. Zealot Miniatures: Twisting Catacombs Kickstarter Backer
User avatar
chaoticprime
Practically Lives Here

Swordsman
Swordsman
 
Posts: 1939
Images: 0
Joined: February 10th, 2013, 3:38 am
Location: Kansas City
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby el_flesh » October 4th, 2013, 9:48 am

I would allow the short sword diagonal attack to represent the speed of it. Same for daggers.

In line with Archetypes of characters, Wizards shouldn't be able to use even short swords, because they are the opposite end of the spectrum from combat specialists. They are the book worms who never played catch as a kid; who never learned how to skate, who never got to date a pretty girl. A wizard openly laughs at the pin brained Barb, but secretly envies his muscles and popularity with any female that sees him. What chick wants a skinny, pale asthmatic to be the father of her children?

Give the Wiz a staff not only because of the magic symbolism, but also because wood is far lighter than steel of comparable length; so a Wiz can handle it. A short sword, though, is heavier.
The wizard can use a dagger because it requires no strength; it relies on the fast twitchy wiriness that Wizards have and muscle bound guys don't. Also, daggers vs swords are penis substitutes just like big vs small guns. So you won't see the macho Barb or the self assured Dwarf using one. The Elf, however....
"I will raise your dead body as an undead skeleton. Then I will make it do unspeakable acts. Like taking a shower." - El Flesh.

Image


Rewards:
Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Created a Hot Topic.
User avatar
el_flesh

Exiled
Exiled
 
Posts: 1315
Images: 4
Joined: April 25th, 2010, 4:38 pm
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » December 9th, 2013, 4:13 pm

The obvious reason that a wizard or anyone else for that matter might prefer a staff over a shortsword should be the cost. Staffs should cost next to nothing but swords, even short ones should cost and arm and a leg! That said I see no objection to a Wizard wielding a shortsword.
:skull: = one hit
:blackshield: = one hit & pushback
:whiteshield: = cancels one hit

HQ versions: "Original" - 1989 1st edition & 1990 2nd edition, "Remake" - 1990 NA remake & 2021 reprint

HQ Golden Rules
FAQs, Errata & Clarifications for the Original Editions
HQ Common Notification System

1BP = :goblin: :orc: :skeleton: :zombie:
2BP = :fimir: :mummy: :chaoswarrior:
3BP = :gargoyle:


Rewards:
Wrote an article for the Blog.
User avatar
Bareheaded Warrior

Scout
Scout
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: December 8th, 2013, 11:12 am
Location: UK
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Short sword (Huh. Good God.) What is it good for?

Postby knightkrawler » December 9th, 2013, 5:54 pm

The objection is either
a) the metal that prevents sorcery according to many a fantasy lore (call it cliché for all I care)
or
b) the simplicity of the rules and the necessity to keep the Wizard a worse fighter than the other heroes in that narrow rule and stats framework
HQ - Heroes & Villains (Dropbox-download link) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jgj0kzsys9w38oh/AAA_VEHx6vMv4HKRX7IiOWTFa?dl=0
Feedback http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3560
Gallery http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1972&hilit=knightkrawler+gallery&start=200
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've found a way of paying off old debts:
Always make more promises than you can break.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges. Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Cheese Baron
knightkrawler
The Furry Blue Derailer

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5825
Images: 27
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 2:26 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

PreviousNext

Return to Rules

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests