Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

[BlackJax]

Onan,

I agree that a simple approach is needed, which is why I posted a hopefully simple one page guide here Line of Sight One Pager

[Onan]

I agree that a simple approach is needed, which is why I posted a hopefully simple one page guide here Line of Sight One Pager

Good idea, BlackJax. Here are some thoughts on it.

Deciding what can be seen by a hero is very
important because it determines what
should be placed onto the board. Only put
things on the board if they can be seen by a
hero.

I know this is partly from 2nd Edition, but 2nd Edition contradicts itself with reagrds to placement and "seen":

Deciding what can be seen by a player character is very important in determining what should be placed onto the board.

As soon as a door is opened, the evil wizard player must place onto the board any pieces shown for that room, or passageway, on the map in the Quest Book.

So the same rules state that "seeing" (the geometric criterion) should be used for placement, and then "room or passageway" (a logic criterion) should be used. I suggest to use the second. Not only does it get rid of the LoS complications for placements, but it also covers special situations where a door is opend by Zargon and the contents placed, without the heroes having LoS: The alarm in Sir Ragnar, the ambush in RotWL Q1, the secret doors in KK Q1.

In your clarification document you could point out this contradiction and suggest to use the easier one.

Rule of thumb: Figures in the same room
are usually visible so there is generally no
need to check line-of-sight

Giving a rule of thumb is not a good idea. The US version did this and was critizied for it (see "Always board never boring" video for example). People want a rule, not a rule of thumb. Also, you reference the LoS rules in the LoF rule, so it remains unclear if there is always LoF in the same room.

an unobstructed straight
line between the centre of the squares
occupied by the two figures.

The center to center problem as been addressed in the other thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6666&start=20

Line-of-Fire [LOF]
This rule is used to determine what a
character (hero or monster) can shoot with
a missile weapon, thrown weapon or spell
that uses the same method.

How do we know what method a spell uses?

[The Admiral]

Have we seen our way to a solution... or is that solution hidden behind that behind the bookcase?

[BlackJax]

Deciding what can be seen by a hero is very important because it determines what should be placed onto the board. Only put things on the board if they can be seen by a hero.

I know this is partly from 2nd Edition, but 2nd Edition contradicts itself with regards to placement and "seen":

Deciding what can be seen by a player character is very important in determining what should be placed onto the board.

As soon as a door is opened, the evil wizard player must place onto the board any pieces shown for that room, or passageway, on the map in the Quest Book.

So the same rules state that "seeing" (the geometric criterion) should be used for placement, and then "room or passageway" (a logic criterion) should be used. I suggest to use the second. Not only does it get rid of the LoS complications for placements, but it also covers special situations where a door is opend by Zargon and the contents placed, without the heroes having LoS: The alarm in Sir Ragnar, the ambush in RotWL Q1, the secret doors in KK Q1.

In your clarification document you could point out this contradiction and suggest to use the easier one.

I may be being dumb but I don't see the contradiction here. You put on the board what you can see. You see what is in your line-of-sight. As soon as you open a door you move through into the room or passageway on the other side, you can then see the contents (according to the line-of-sight rule) so they are placed on the board.

Rule of thumb: Figures in the same room are usually visible so there is generally no need to check line-of-sight

Giving a rule of thumb is not a good idea. The US version did this and was critizied for it (see "Always board never boring" video for example). People want a rule, not a rule of thumb.

I'll have a think about that but you might be right. I'll take a look at that video.

Also, you reference the LoS rules in the LoF rule, so it remains unclear if there is always LoF in the same room.

There isn't always LoF in the same room for two reasons

(1) There isn't always LoS in the same room, the point of the rule of thumb is that it is quick and easy and true in most circumstances but not all. It is possible, rare but possible, that you don't have LoS in the same room, so wouldn't be able to see and therefore shoot a target

(2) Even if you can see it the target in a room, your line-of-fire might be blocked by intervening figures.

Just typing this and I'm thinking that removing the rule of thumb might be a good call!

an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the squares occupied by the two figures.

The center to center problem as been addressed in the other thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6666&start=20

Yes and I'll address it on there.

Line-of-Fire [LOF] This rule is used to determine what a character (hero or monster) can shoot with a missile weapon, thrown weapon or spell that uses the same method.

How do we know what method a spell uses?

Good call, I'll shorten this to

Line-of-Fire [LOF] This rule is used to determine what a character can target with a missile attack or spell.