Borin's Armor clarification

[Kurgan]

Since the Wizard could wear it, you're saying he could also use the Helmet and/or shield but only when combining it with the Armor?

I'd go by what the cards say (AND don't say... not "or") to try to sort it out. That's why it was such a big deal that in the remake they left off the text "may not be used by the wizard" from the Hand Axe (by mistake) at first.

[wallydubbs]

Since the Wizard could wear it, you're saying he could also use the Helmet and/or shield but only when combining it with the Armor?

I'd go by what the cards say (AND don't say... not "or") to try to sort it out. That's why it was such a big deal that in the remake they left off the text "may not be used by the wizard" from the Hand Axe (by mistake) at first.

No, what I'm saying is that the wording might be obscure because the Wizard could wear Borin's Armor, but not other armor. If any hero was able to wear this version of Borin's Armor the mention of helmet/shield combination was left out so nobody finds a contradiction if the Wizard just happens to wear it.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

For the original version of the game wallydubbs is spot on (except that the original version called it Plate armour rather than Plate Mail)

Borin's Armor is Plate Mail without the movement penalty. You may use a shield and/or helmet with it. The same rules apply to Borin's Armor as it does Plate Mail, only without the movement penalty. That's the only difference.

Whilst the "cannot be used by the Wizard" was omitted from the card text (same as the Spirit Blade), as wallydubbs has said the same rules apply to Borin's Armour as Plate, the only difference is the removal of the movement penalty, so as the Wizard cannot use Plate armour he also cannot use Borin's Armour.

Whenever a particular card's text directly contradicts other rules, the card takes precedence, but it only overrides the specific rule that applies to that specific situation, in this instance the movement penalty.

[Kurgan]

He wore it in the Sticker Album, but you could say in the two years since the original version, maybe it was influenced by how fans played the game more than how the rules were intended?

[The Admiral]

13 years of discussion and 13 pages! And still people can't agree. Some of this got quite heated . I'd say it was quite obvious but that clearly has NOT been the case.

Having played Borin's Armour since 1990 it seemed obvious to me that it was Plate Armour without the movement penalty. It never occurred to me there could be any other interpretation. Having read through this thread I am still of the same opinion.

Trying to pin its correct usage by cross referencing multiple written cards across different verions through space and time, including multiple versions of other cards, could indeed lead you down a dark path .

But heck, what do I know? But if I've learnt something over the years on this site, it's each to his own .

[Onan]

My guess is that the 5 quest treasure cards were made in an early stage of development. It is just speculation, but having played the EU version without buying any equipment I would say the equipment was added some time later. The game is so much better without the equipment.

If you think of it this way, it is clear that Borin's Armour did not care about helmets and shields. It was the only piece of armour you could get, and it gave you 4 defense dice. The idea of accumulating defense points came later with the equipment.

Also, with so few quest treasure it was not necessary to forbid the wizard any of it. Why not have a wizard with Spirit Blade and Borin's Armour? He was the lucky one who found it. And he will soon die in it, so maybe another hero can find it in another quest.

With the equipment there came the extra dice and wizard restrictions, and nobody thought about aligning the old quest treasure with the new equipment. So it's up to the players to do this. To be in line with the equipment, it's probably best to say Borin's Armour doesn't include a helmet like the Chain Mail and Plate Mail, and that it can't be used by the wizard.

With the possessions there came the fear of death, and those who once stepped bravely through doors now camp outside.


So does Borin's Armour include a helmet? Yes, it's in the picture.

Can you combine it with a helmet? Yes, the helmet gives you one extra defense die. Can you combine a helmet with another helmet? Yes, a helmet gives you one extra defense die.

Is Borin's Armour plate armour? No, it's scale armour in the picture. It doesn't even have arm protection.

[The Admiral]

:2cents: My guess is that the 5 quest treasure cards were made in an early stage of development. It is just speculation, but having played the EU version without buying any equipment I would say the equipment was added some time later. The game is so much better without the equipment.

If you think of it this way, it is clear that Borin's Armour did not care about helmets and shields. It was the only piece of armour you could get, and it gave you 4 defense dice. The idea of accumulating defense points came later with the equipment.

Also, with so few quest treasure it was not necessary to forbid the wizard any of it. Why not have a wizard with Spirit Blade and Borin's Armour? He was the lucky one who found it. And he will soon die in it, so maybe another hero can find it in another quest.

That's an interesting hypothesis. Did you play all 14 quests that way?

[Onan]

That's an interesting hypothesis. Did you play all 14 quests that way?

Yes, I ran this for my son (sometimes one of his siblings joined), with The Trial as a bonus quest after the other quests. He lost some heroes, but never his favorite character: , whom he gave all 5 quest treasure when found.

Then he ran Kellar's Keep for me starting fresh without buying equipment. He hid the 5 quest treasure in the first 5 quests. I found Borin' Armor in the Dwarven Forge and the Spirit Blade in the tomb in Hall the Dwarven Kings, but then the center was overrun and only the Elf escaped through a wall, and all quest treasure was lost. In the Great Citadel I had nothing and got TPK'ed. He said he'd show me how to play this right, so we switched roles and replayed, and he got through. I continued with some casualties, and then again got TPK'ed at Grin's Crag, where again the Elf reached the exit alone but was killed by the Gargoyle.

We started Return of the Witch Lord fresh, and at the second try I got a survivor through The Gate of Doom. The others saw how hard it is and everyone gave it a try, with the ultimate solution being a Pass Through Rock through the first blocked square. Then he got tired of playing by the book, so we switched back to one-off missions invented on the fly.

All this "no equipment" style started last year, when I realized how much I hated the Crossbow and Battle Axe when I was the monsters. So I hid the equipment cards under the plastic inlay of the box, and everybody forgot about them. Now that's how we play. Buying equipment feels great, but once you're a veteran the effect wears off. And I prefer the endgame with / heores over / heroes.

[The Admiral]

That's an interesting hypothesis. Did you play all 14 quests that way?

Yes, I ran this for my son (sometimes one of his siblings joined), with The Trial as a bonus quest after the other quests. He lost some heroes, but never his favorite character: , whom he gave all 5 quest treasure when found.

Then he ran Kellar's Keep for me starting fresh without buying equipment. He hid the 5 quest treasure in the first 5 quests. I found Borin' Armor in the Dwarven Forge and the Spirit Blade in the tomb in Hall the Dwarven Kings, but then the center was overrun and only the Elf escaped through a wall, and all quest treasure was lost. In the Great Citadel I had nothing and got TPK'ed. He said he'd show me how to play this right, so we switched roles and replayed, and he got through. I continued with some casualties, and then again got TPK'ed at Grin's Crag, where again the Elf reached the exit alone but was killed by the Gargoyle.

We started Return of the Witch Lord fresh, and at the second try I got a survivor through The Gate of Doom. The others saw how hard it is and everyone gave it a try, with the ultimate solution being a Pass Through Rock through the first blocked square. Then he got tired of playing by the book, so we switched back to one-off missions invented on the fly.

All this "no equipment" style started last year, when I realized how much I hated the Crossbow and Battle Axe when I was the monsters. So I hid the equipment cards under the plastic inlay of the box, and everybody forgot about them. Now that's how we play. Buying equipment feels great, but once you're a veteran the effect wears off. And I prefer the endgame with / heores over / heroes.

Yes, I can see how it could work for the basic quests. Maybe not later on? What do you do with money, potions I suppose?

I totally agree with the everyone has a battleaxe, longsword and crossbow problem. One solution is only allow one of each for the whole party. I have restrictions such as the following:
1) Dwarves will not use swords (starts with a Hand Axe).
2) Elves cannot have a battle axe (too heavy).
3) Barbarians don't use bows.

It's reasonably thematic and now actually fits in more with the rules we see for the new characters such as the Rogue and Explorer.

[Onan]

Yes, I can see how it could work for the basic quests. Maybe not later on? What do you do with money, potions I suppose?

The money is just for fun and bragging who found more. We play Euro and don't have potion shops. In WoM we buy mercs, and the heroes get some money before the first quest. Nobody keeps a record of gold and potions. If we play several quests in a row, we sometimes keep the potion cards in between, but at the end of the session they are returned to the box and not reclaimed next time.

I totally agree with the everyone has a battleaxe, longsword and crossbow problem. One solution is only allow one of each for the whole party. I have restrictions such as the following:
1) Dwarves will not use swords (starts with a Hand Axe).
2) Elves cannot have a battle axe (too heavy).
3) Barbarians don't use bows.

Yes, back in the 90s we restricted equipment by the equipment cards. Not for balancing reasons, but simply because there were 2 helmet and shield cards, and we thought that was the intention. Hmm, maybe that*s also something to consider with Borin's Armour. If there are only 2 helmets, the guy with Borin's Armour doesn't need one and can leave it to someone else.