BQP: The Frozen Horror Remake Main Thread!

[wallydubbs]

Is the lack of playtesting still a debate? This is the reason Into the Northlands gave us the Armband of Ice and boatload of other artifacts that could potentially be implemented into Frozen Horror. It also introduces a pet (although the Wolf figurine didn't come until later).
I've played a group of 4 from Game System to Keller's Keep, Prophecy of Telor & Return of the Witch Lord through the Frozen Horror (Barbarian, Elf, Dwarf & Druid) without making adjustments (even allowing a double-block with the Polar Warbear attack, and by the time they got to the Heart of Ice they had used ALL of their healing potions. When the Scepter of Quest 8 exploded they used their last one. So when it came to the double quest at the end I knew they were going to die. If they had to get the Crystal Key there was no home. But the Elf had randomly picked Air Spells, I allowed the Genie spell to open the Frozen Horror's door. This was the only reason they survived. That and the Druid permanently kept Lifeforce in the Spell Ring.

If you compare Wizards of Morcar with the old one you'll notice this version is toned down. The original version was somewhat, I've even played it in the past with American Rules... Still not as difficult as Frozen Horror. So if they can adjust & change Wizards of Morcar due to difficulty and make it easy enough where you don't even need Mercenaries, Frozen Horror & Mage of the Mirror should have been tamed too

[Parzival]

Decided to run the first quest with my veteran Barbarian, survivor and victor of the original Quest Book, Keller’s Keep, Return of the Witch Lord, Spirit Queen’s Torment, and Prophecy of Telar.
Equipped with: Chain Mail, Helmet, Shield, Crossbow, a Longsword, and the Spirit Blade, plus a boatload of potions. Bought a Tool Kit (though in retrospect this isn’t any better than just triggering the dang trap and making the “save” roll).

I did not use the app; I just consulted the Quest Book for what could be found in each room, ignoring the full map and notes.

I played him as if ignorant of the final exit location, and using Shoot & Scoot tactics. Eventually found the door with 4 HP down, having used no potions. Did not encounter the bigger monsters at all, aside from a Mummy. (I just went with him looking for corridor access, as that’s where the Wooden Door would be).

Now, I never found two pieces of equipment the quest provides, but with the panoply he already carried, I didn’t need them.

I can see if he went through *all* the rooms and fought the biggest monster of the quest, he would have had to burn through a potion or two. But playing “find the quickest path out,” it was a challenge but not any sort of dire circumstance.
Having a crossbow at the start and 4 or 5 Defense dice (depending on which weapon he’d just used) helped a lot.

Next, Quest Two with my veteran.

[Parzival]

Quest Two went well for my veteran Barbarian, using the Scoot & Shoot tactics. Did use a Potion of Healing left over from his earlier campaigns, but otherwise it was a close run, but successful (down 4 Body Points after the Potion). Did get some lucky movement rolls to stay ahead of some of the tougher beasts, and the final BBEG. But it worked. This one I did without the app, attempting best tactics for everybody. Though honestly, chasing a hero with a crossbow down a long corridor is probably a bad idea for the bad guys, especially the bigger, slower ones.

Took on Quest Three as well. Hate pit traps. Jus’ saying. App as Zargon.

My veteran took on the job again. This one was blind for me. I was doing Shoot & Scoot constantly— there are a LOT of monsters. Burned two Healing Potions, two Potions of Battle, one Potion of Defense, one Potion of Speed, one Potion of Dexterity, and one Potion of Icy Strength (bought after Quest Two). All but the PoIS were leftover from previous campaigns. But he survived, rescued the hostage, and made it out. And got no reward from the Barbarian kingdom for saving their celebrated wise man? What?!?
Well, I got some gold, and a Battle Axe (which came in handy).

Final assessment— again, Exploring Everything is a bad idea (I did do this on Quest Three, but should have been smarter, and if I had would likely have had less trouble and encountered fewer monsters). But even if trying to minimize monster contact, this quest is brutal. I don’t think it’s survivable without some potions to blunt the effects of monster attacks, or get a boost to kill a monster before it can strike back. And none of the three quests provide such things except by random chance on the Treasure deck draws. For a Barbarian with no starting equipment or magic, the odds of winning out are clearly extremely low. I think at least two Potions of some sort— Healing and/or Defense— should be included along the way, if not in the first quest itself!

One interesting element— one of the monsters has a significant and deadly special power— yet the App never applied it, even when all the circumstances for that ability were clearly met. So I only knew about it after reading some of the comments here. In the last round I was certain it would be applied, but … nothing. (Had it been, scratch one veteran Barbarian.) Might be an omission in coding.

For the record, my rule with the Battle Axe or Crossbow is that you have to declare which weapon you are using at the start of a round of combat; this determines whether or not you have a Shield available when the monsters attack *you*. Any shift to a different panoply is assumed to happen between Zargon’s turn (which always ends a round) and the Hero’s next turn, where the Hero can announce a change at the time of his Attack action (if he takes one).


EDIT: Minor typo.

[The Admiral]

For the record, my rule with the Battle Axe of Crossbow is that you have to declare which weapon you are using at the start of a round of combat; this determines whether or not you have a Shield available when the monsters attack *you*. Any shift to a different panoply is assumed to happen between Zargon’s turn (which always ends a round) and the Hero’s next turn, where the Hero can announce a change at the time of his Attack action (if he takes one).

Yes, I instituted a similar rule very recently. At the start of a Hero's turn they must declare what they are wielding in their hands/wearing and this remains set until the start of their next turn

[Parzival]

Ran a full squad of heroes through The Glacier Gate, the start of the team campaign for TFH. Whoa, it’s a toughie.
Mostly I was doing a test run using the App, getting some exposure to the nature of the beast, so I fudged here or there to get through it. But if I hadn’t, I think I’d have lost some heroes— not just standard guys, but some veterans with potions and artifacts galore.

A few observations: To be honest, I don’t think the original quests in the main game set are quite tough enough. This isn’t supposed to be a D&D campaign structure. It’s a board game, with a deliberately antagonistic opponent— Zargon— who is trying to win too. And he wins by killing all the heroes. Period. He’s not a referee— he’s out to clobber you.
But we get too used to the idea that the heroes are Player Characters, like in an RPG. They’re not. They’re just 2-D fantasy archetypes. It’s a board game. If they die, you take the exact same heroes and try again. There’s no loss, aside from losing the game.

The Frozen Horror fits this revelation well. This is not overbalanced in favor of the heroes, or against them. But smartly played by Zargon, he can rip an incautious party to shreds— and even a cautious party may wind up destroyed. I’ve heard that it’s broken, but I don’t think it is. I just think it’s brutal— a quest series that Zargon has a solid chance of winning— solid, but not insurmountable. You can’t play this expecting that your heroes will sail through, or even succeed at all. You’re gonna have to think, apply solid tactics, and be on your toes. But if you do make victory happen, you will know it was well earned.

[Onan]

But we get too used to the idea that the heroes are Player Characters, like in an RPG. They’re not. They’re just 2-D fantasy archetypes. It’s a board game. If they die, you take the exact same heroes and try again. There’s no loss, aside from losing the game.

A true hero keeps calm in the face of death and accepts his fate.

We also enjoy this meat grinder. Instead of fully equipped heroes we use 1BP monsters, and it is still near impossible. We take it with a grain of salt. It feels like one of those old video games that were so unfair, like Sega Genesis "The Immortal" that kept constantly dying And still you couldn't stop playing.



I only wish the quest duration was a bit shorter and the objectives more interesting.

[Parzival]

Okay, found what’s definitely broken— the Icy River rule.
It’s okay for the Heroes. But for the Mercenaries, it’s instant death.

The river is 8 squares long. Each square forces a cold damage die roll— on a white shield, the hero/mercenary takes 1 hit.
At the same time, the river slows movement in half, but that’s not all that relevant as each square forces the check, no matter how swiftly the character moves.
Now, you might get lucky and roll no white shields. Emphasis on “might.”
But odds are on 8 dice rolls you’ll wind up with two shields or more. This will kill every mercenary in the game (2 body points each.) Maybe that’s a “who cares” bit, as there doesn’t seem to be a penalty for losing henchmen, but thematically it doesn’t seem very heroic.

In the second group adventure there’s an icy river that fills the only path available to the exit. But by the time you reach it, you’ve probably killed off any opposition. So for the heroes, you travel down the river, taking some hits, leave, and *poof* the hits are irrelevant because the quest is over. So it’s a “what’s the point?” trap. If a hero dies, the others grab his stuff, and then in the next adventure the new guy can be given it all. It’s not a detriment, and if Zargon “wins” because of this trap, it’s kind of a cheap win, with a railroad in place too.

[Thrasher79]

Hello,

Yes, I couldn't agree more. The rule for ice rivers is really brutally unfair. As a game master, I don't want to decimate the heroes' physical strength in this way. They should lose the fight, but not because of weird rules. Unfortunately, the BQ is full of weird rules. I have no idea how my group passed it in the past Back then, we still played according to the basic rules without heroes being able to level up, etc. The only thing there was were spells that the wizard could buy, but even those weren't overpowered spells.
As things stand today, we play BQ without the Ice River. Also without the Glateisfelder. The monsters are also adapted to our rules. So BQ is quite playable, even though there are still strange segments in the adventures, of course.

Greetings, Thrasher79

[Parzival]

I’ll probably change the Icy River rule to require a damage check on entering the river the first time, and at the start of every turn while still in the river. Given a length of 8 squares, that’s two to four checks for each of the mercenaries depending on speed (allowing for the half-speed movement). Heroes will vary by movement roll, obviously. I’d also place the river earlier in that quest, with maybe a path around to avoid it. Otherwise, it’s too nasty.

An interesting question is whether a mercenary can be allowed to use the Ring of Warmth to avoid the river effects. They don’t claim treasure, but temporary use of an item seems reasonable.

[Kurgan]

By default Mercs don't get to use potions, but you could cast a spell on them... Pass Through Rock might let one merc bypass the river especially if combined with Swift Wind (spells aren't wasted if "next time he moves" is observed). There's no benefit to keeping mercs alive from one quest to the next by default... though the "warhorn of command" (Into the Northlands supplement) does because you save half gold providing an incentive. Heroes can use artifact and/or potion of warmth to survive the river. Mercs are limited to what can be used ON them, however.