Removing Falling Block Traps

[Zenithfleet]

I wrote out a long reply but got confused about which tab I was working in and lost it. Oh well...

Anyway, I think MonsterMotor and I have reached a point of irreconcilable difference in our thinky braining styles. We've also demonstrated that one person's clear and straightforward rulebook is another person's vague, nonsensical, error-ridden mess.

Despite that, we're in furious agreement that the rules are silly, so it's all good.

One other aspect that hasn't been covered is that in the EU base game questbook, falling block traps are rare. This may be due to the paucity of blocked square tokens (only eight singles plus two doubles). It's ironic that these traps cause so many rules questions even though they don't pop up much. (I've had some trouble converting NA quests over to EU format because of the fewer blocked squares available.)


I'll just respond to this bit:

Amusingly you are both correct here, HQ and other games do use a single component to represent different things, but you can only do that IF the two things follow the same rules OR you specify each time it is being used what it is being used for (like the Chaos Sorcerer miniature which always comes with a description of what it is representing on this occasion)

The issue here is that the same marker is being used for BOTH a single blocked square marker (which CANNOT be removed) and the result of a falling block trap that has been triggered or found and has resulted in a block being placed that CAN be removed.

But the game does specify what the marker is being used for each time. Doesn't it?

- If the blocked square is shown on the quest map as a blocked square, then it's a blocked square and can't be removed.
- If the blocked square is placed due to a falling block trap, then it's a 'trap tile' and can be removed.

Seems straightforward to me. The quest map specifies which type it is.

The only issue is a visual/memory one for the character players: which of these markers on the board can be removed? "I forget whether this one came from a trap or not. They all look the same!" But the evil wizard player has the questbook, so he/she can check if necessary.

It's a bit clunky and having two different markers would be helpful, but I don't think it's essential. Opinions on this clearly differ, though!

Having two different tiles for "found but not yet fallen / can be disarmed" versus "triggered/fallen/permanent", now, that would be cool...

[Bareheaded Warrior]

In general the quest map does allow the EWP at least to determine the difference* but I think we are all agreed that two different markers would have been better.

*The exceptional one that stands out for me is in Barak Tor, on your first visit a falling block is placed which CAN be removed but if you choose not to remove it then when you visit a second time logically you should still be able to remove it, but ont he second quest map the icon used suggests that it cannot now be removed...did a group of monsters dig out and remove the original fallen block and replace it with a blocked square block between quests?

All of that aside, what do we want from a house rule point of view?

1. Blocked Squares (including from Falling Block Traps) and Pits (from Pit Traps) are features that once placed on the board cannot be removed.
2. This renders the Dwarf's disarm skill and the Tool Kit equipment card to be pointless, which would be a shame, so we need some purpose for those that relates to the concept of "disarming", i.e. making a trap "safe"
3. As you presumably can't disarm a trap before you find it, this would need to introduce the concept of a found but not yet trigerred trap

Anything else?

[Zenithfleet]

*The exceptional one that stands out for me is in Barak Tor, on your first visit a falling block is placed which CAN be removed but if you choose not to remove it then when you visit a second time logically you should still be able to remove it, but ont he second quest map the icon used suggests that it cannot now be removed...did a group of monsters dig out and remove the original fallen block and replace it with a blocked square block between quests?

This was one of the things I tried to respond to in the earlier reply that got buried by a falling internet block trap...

It doesn't bother me, because I assume each map is functionally 'fresh and new' and created out of nothing. Thematically, quest 14 is meant to represent you returning to Barak Tor... but for gameplay purposes it's a completely new map that happens to closely resemble the layout of an earlier map.

The maps have no 'memory' that carries over from quest to quest. Each map pops into existence at the start of the quest, persists until the quest ends, and then vanishes. A bit like loading a level in a video game.

All of that aside, what do we want from a house rule point of view?

1. Blocked Squares (including from Falling Block Traps) and Pits (from Pit Traps) are features that once placed on the board cannot be removed.
2. This renders the Dwarf's disarm skill and the Tool Kit equipment card to be pointless, which would be a shame, so we need some purpose for those that relates to the concept of "disarming", i.e. making a trap "safe"
3. As you presumably can't disarm a trap before you find it, this would need to introduce the concept of a found but not yet trigerred trap

Anything else?

I reckon that covers it.

My own house rule is pretty simple. I took the 2nd edition UK rulebook text on page 12 and made the following revision to the 'Secret doors and traps' section at the top of the page, second paragraph:

"Pit traps and falling block traps are placed onto the board when triggered. If found by a search, place the trap tile upside-down to show it has not been triggered yet. Spear traps are rendered harmless when found, so there are no tokens for spear traps. Upside-down trap tiles may be removed from the board by any character who has the Tool Kit equipment card and is adjacent to the trap. The Dwarf may automatically remove any upside-down trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn."

Conveniently, the pit traps and falling blocks in the base game have black backs, so they look good placed upside-down as warning markers where detected traps are waiting. The extra ones from the expansions are unfortunately white, but it's not a big deal.

There may well be technical problems with this house rule as written, but it was all I could fit into the available space and it hasn't caused me any dramas so far. Except when we were playing Ogre Horde recently and I forgot it was a house rule, so two of us got permanently stuck and swore at the designers without good cause.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Logically, from a gameplay point of view, I agree with your approach to the Barak Tor block, but whilst maps have no memory, players do, so I think I'd feel a little lame, if asked by a player why they now couldn't remove the fallen block in Q14, if I'd told them that they could remove it, but they didn't in Q12.

Anyway as we are now looking at house rules to make them permanent then the above issue disappears, whether it was real or illusionary in the first place!

Pit traps and falling block traps are placed onto the board when triggered.
If found by a search, place the trap tile upside-down to show it has not been triggered yet.
Spear traps are rendered harmless when found, so there are no tokens for spear traps.
Upside-down trap tiles may be removed from the board by any character who has the Tool Kit equipment card and is adjacent to the trap. The Dwarf may automatically remove any upside-down trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.

I think the following wording for your first line might be more clear "triggering pit traps and falling block traps result in the pit marker and blocked square marker respectively being placed on the board face up. These are features and cannot be removed."

When you say that your houserule is simple and hasn't caused you any dramas, so far...I would argue that it is simple but not complete.

1) Am I correct in thinking that in your house rule, disarming/removing a found trap, at least for the tool kit wielder, is conditional, it involves a roll that could be a success or a failure?

If so then what is the consequence of failure? As I hope you would agree that a roll that can be a success or a failure is a bit pointless if both outcomes are identical.

2) Why does finding a Spear trap render it harmless? I can't think of any reason why this needs to be treated differently to the other traps under your ruleset, there is no corresponding permanent feature/obstacle but why wouldn't you place a "blank" marker and a player can choose to attempt to disarm it and suffer a BP loss if they fail or could choose to step onto the square and suffer the consequences if they wish?

3) Why does the tool kit user lose a Body Point if they fail the roll, they aren't on the trapped square they are adjacent to it, are these really sharp tools?

4) Why is the Dwarf who is automatically successful limited to only one trap disarm per turn, when the tool kit user who is presumably not as skilled, can have unlimited (well technically 12) disarms within a single turn)?

5) Also where do you place your face down marker in the case of a falling block trap, on the trigger square on an the adjacent square where the block will fall?

6) If the Quest creator chooses to place a trap on a square that cannot be avoided, then how would that trap be handled once found if the Dwarf wasn't present (dead or missing) and no one had bought the Tool Kit?

Except when we were playing Ogre Horde recently and I forgot it was a house rule, so two of us got permanently stuck and swore at the designers without good cause.

Is being inconsistent a good cause, maybe?

[Zenithfleet]

Pit traps and falling block traps are placed onto the board when triggered.
If found by a search, place the trap tile upside-down to show it has not been triggered yet.
Spear traps are rendered harmless when found, so there are no tokens for spear traps.
Upside-down trap tiles may be removed from the board by any character who has the Tool Kit equipment card and is adjacent to the trap. The Dwarf may automatically remove any upside-down trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.

I think the following wording for your first line might be more clear "triggering pit traps and falling block traps result in the pit marker and blocked square marker respectively being placed on the board face up. These are features and cannot be removed."

The wording I used sticks as closely as possible to the official wording in the rulebook. It's more of an edit than a rewriting. The first line is the same as the official rulebook. So is the line about spear traps.

Effectively I've just inserted the phrase 'upside-down' into the paragraph a few times, and added a little explanation where needed. If you compare it to the 2nd ed rulebook paragraph at the top of page 12 you'll see what I mean.

When you say that your houserule is simple and hasn't caused you any dramas, so far...I would argue that it is simple but not complete.

The thing about a house rule is that the person who came up with it always knows exactly what it means and can explain the details to whoever is at the table, so they can get away with incomplete legalese rules text.

1) Am I correct in thinking that in your house rule, disarming/removing a found trap, at least for the tool kit wielder, is conditional, it involves a roll that could be a success or a failure?

If so then what is the consequence of failure? As I hope you would agree that a roll that can be a success or a failure is a bit pointless if both outcomes are identical.

The Tool Kit works just as it says on the card. The only change is that it can only be used on upside-down trap tiles. (And furniture traps.) It can't be used on a face-up pit, or a block that has fallen.

Really, I ought to update the Tool Kit card to reflect this, but I haven't gotten around to it.

2) Why does finding a Spear trap render it harmless? I can't think of any reason why this needs to be treated differently to the other traps under your ruleset, there is no corresponding permanent feature/obstacle but why wouldn't you place a "blank" marker and a player can choose to attempt to disarm it and suffer a BP loss if they fail or could choose to step onto the square and suffer the consequences if they wish?

Spear traps are treated the same way they are in the official rules because there's no reason to change them. They work fine as is. Neat and economical. My problem is with the falling blocks, and to a lesser extent the pits.

My aim isn't to make a new improved ruleset. It's to make a few small tweaks here and there to the official rules--the fewer the better--and leave everything else alone.

Besides, putting a marker down for every spear trap would a) require extra markers that don't come with the game, and b) slow things down unnecessarily as the players laboriously disarm the spears one by one... or are forced to wade through them if they don't have a Dwarf or Tool Kit handy.

3) Why does the tool kit user lose a Body Point if they fail the roll, they aren't on the trapped square they are adjacent to it, are these really sharp tools?

Because that's the official way it's written in the rulebook and the card. Under the default rules you would have the same issue when using the Tool Kit on an open pit.

4) Why is the Dwarf who is automatically successful limited to only one trap disarm per turn, when the tool kit user who is presumably not as skilled, can have unlimited (well technically 12) disarms within a single turn)?

Because that's the official way it's written in the rulebook!

5) Also where do you place your face down marker in the case of a falling block trap, on the trigger square on an the adjacent square where the block will fall?

On the trigger square. (Though that can be decided on the spot by the evil wizard player if necessary.)

6) If the Quest creator chooses to place a trap on a square that cannot be avoided, then how would that trap be handled once found if the Dwarf wasn't present (dead or missing) and no one had bought the Tool Kit?

For a falling block trap, you have to step onto it, set it off, and suffer the 100% chance of rock showers. Usually the result will be to divide the party without hurting anyone--which is the clear intention of many EU falling block traps if they aren't found ahead of time.

For a pit trap, I would allow the characters to attempt to jump the square in the same way as jumping an open pit, because they know it's there.


In terms of my general approach, I'm not trying to 'build a better HeroQuest' as many others have done. I come at it from an editor's mindset. The more I look at the original EU rules the more I admire their simple elegance. All I want to do is make a few edits, if you see what I mean.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The wording I used sticks as closely as possible to the official wording in the rulebook. It's more of an edit than a rewriting. The first line is the same as the official rulebook. So is the line about spear traps.

My aim isn't to make a new improved ruleset. It's to make a few small tweaks here and there to the official rules--the fewer the better--and leave everything else alone.

In terms of my general approach, I'm not trying to 'build a better HeroQuest' as many others have done. I come at it from an editor's mindset. The more I look at the original EU rules the more I admire their simple elegance. All I want to do is make a few edits, if you see what I mean.

I agree with your approach and your comments entirely and whilst some might view my own house rules as much more of a "build a better HeroQuest" than your approach of a polish of the existing rules (and I understand why they might) but my intention is and has always been to just try to "polish the existing rules", a few tweaks here and there, the fewer the better, and my own house rules contain only (!) around 30 such tweaks but then considering these have accumulated over the course of three and half decades of play, I suppose it isn't that many! The only real possible exception to this approach is around the search, trap and disarm area of the rules because I ended up with so many tweaks in the same area (around a dozen if memory serves me correctly) that it actually forced me to rework this whole area of the rules in order to, I hope, result in that simple elegance that reflects the spirit of HQ!

How would you handle placing the "blank" tile for a falling block trap, if the trigger was opening a chest or a door?

[Zenithfleet]

How would you handle placing the "blank" tile for a falling block trap, if the trigger was opening a chest or a door?

Do you have an example from an official quest in mind? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Or are you thinking of a fan-made quest?

In that case I would consider the trap to be a furniture trap, or rather a 'treasure chest trap' as per the 2nd ed rulebook. There would be no upside-down / blank trap tile, because the location of the trap would be on the chest or the door.

Anyway, if going by the rulebook, such a trap would be automatically disarmed if found by a search, like the usual treasure chest traps.


However, I should probably think some more about how to handle the traps in Ogre Horde. Pits of Darkness can't be disarmed, and I can't remember how Swinging Blade traps work off the top of my head...


On the subject of treasure chest traps, it occurred to me the other day that the Tool Kit equipment card is a bit strange. We rarely buy or use it (possibly because we sense its strangeness) so I haven't had much reason to worry about it.

It talks about the trap you're trying to disarm being 'set off' if you fail the roll. Under the default rules this doesn't make much sense, as you alluded to above with your 'really sharp tools' comment.

Under default rules, 'setting off' a pit trap or a falling block would mean nothing because the pit or block is already on the board before you use the Tool Kit on it. Also, you somehow lose a Body point despite standing safely adjacent to the pit or the fallen rubble.

The main context in which the Tool Kit's wording makes sense is trying to disarm a treasure chest trap... but those are automatically disarmed when you find them with a search, so you would never need to use the Tool Kit anyway! I guess you could use it on a chest you haven't checked for traps, though.

It's almost as if the wording on the Tool Kit card was written for an early-draft version of the rules in which traps did have a 'found but not yet triggered' stage and you had the opportunity to disarm them while they were still poised to go off. At least for traps on treasure chests, and possibly for others too. For some reason it wasn't revised later. It actually makes a bit more sense when used with my house rule.

(It reminds me of an infamous card in MB's Space Crusade that refers to an Ork firing like a 'Devastator' even though no such weapon or model exists in the final game. It probably meant 'heavy weapon' in an earlier version of the rules, but there's no clue about which of the several heavy weapons it was meant to be, or if you could choose whichever you liked.)

Or am I missing something?

[Kurgan]

In ATOH remake, according to the quest booklet notes, the Swinging Blade trap may be "disarmed automatically once discovered" by the Dwarf (does this mean searching for traps removes it, or meaning he can say on the next turn "I'm disarming the trap" and it just goes away when he moves to that square?) but other heroes with toolkits have to roll 1 combat die and a skull triggers the Swinging blade (remember, don't get confused with the Swinging AXE traps of the Frozen Horror, which behave completely differently here). So you could substitute "mercenary scout" or "Explorer" here for the Dwarf, and Rogue hero would follow the same rules as the Toolkit hero.

I definitely had the wrong idea bout some things in the EU edition because I was focusing either only on what the rulebook said, or what the card said, and not taking it as the rulebook is the general rule and the cards modify it (and then the quest notes modify both in each instance but not necessarily across the board, just in that particular quest). But you take it all together in context. I was also recently reminded that it's not just that either, there's also the GM screen (which has different info in the EU vs. NA) that could also be seen as supplementing the "general rules." It has to all be taken together in context to figure out the most likely intended meaning.


Regarding disarms... I kind of like the idea that a fallen block trap or pit trap can be cleared and removed after being triggered, but that there's still an inherent risk involved in doing so. Maybe the "cave in" collapses further, or the character "falls in" as they are covering over the pit trap or filling it in, whatever... explaining the 1 BP damage (but the trap is removed permanently). Granted, in some cases a quest is designed so that the trap is meant to permanently cut off a certain area forcing an alternate route, but when it traps a character "forever" (but doesn't kill them) I consider that a bug, and this is an easy work around. You could always say that a certain block is magical or that "even with your skill, it cannot be removed" if you have to enforce it. Pass Through Rock could always be used to bypass such things, but as we know it isn't an ability everyone has available all the time.

I like to know what the designers intended, even if I am going to disagree with it and change it at my table. Writing mistakes do happen of course. Being able to reference other language versions is helpful. The German edition of Space Crusade ("StarQuest") clears up the "Devastator" mystery by describing it in two places as the equivalent of the Plasma Gun (called the Blackhole Blaster, when translated from the German text).

[Zenithfleet]

In ATOH remake, according to the quest booklet notes, the Swinging Blade trap may be "disarmed automatically once discovered" by the Dwarf (does this mean searching for traps removes it, or meaning he can say on the next turn "I'm disarming the trap" and it just goes away when he moves to that square?) but other heroes with toolkits have to roll 1 combat die and a skull triggers the Swinging blade (remember, don't get confused with the Swinging AXE traps of the Frozen Horror, which behave completely differently here). So you could substitute "mercenary scout" or "Explorer" here for the Dwarf, and Rogue hero would follow the same rules as the Toolkit hero.

Hmm, now this is intriguing...

In the original EU edition of Ogre Horde, Swinging Blade traps do have a 'detected but not triggered' state. That's very unusual for the EU game. They have no trap tile to put on the board when found, but they don't vanish in a puff of smoke when found by a search. You have to remember where the trigger square is and try not to step on it. To disarm it you must be adjacent to the trigger square. (The SBT rules don't specify this, but that's what you have to do for other EU traps.) The Dwarf would presumably work the same way. Once he knows where the black axe square is, if he's adjacent to it, he can automatically get rid of the blade trap.

Also, scandalously, despite being for the EU game, the original Ogre Horde uses the word 'corridor' instead of 'passage' when describing a Swinging Blade trap! Outrageous!

Those two facts make me wonder if the idea for Swinging Blade traps came from the North American team, or from someone who had been in touch with them and knew something about the NA rules. Which came first, the Swinging Axe traps in classic Frozen Horror or the Swinging Blade traps in classic Ogre Horde? They use the same symbol, so one must have borrowed from the other.

Meanwhile, Pit of Darkness traps are pretty much the same as pit traps, except they can't be disarmed. Using my house rule for upside-down trap tiles, I'd probably just put them on the board face-up when found, because there's no getting rid of them.

I definitely had the wrong idea bout some things in the EU edition because I was focusing either only on what the rulebook said, or what the card said, and not taking it as the rulebook is the general rule and the cards modify it (and then the quest notes modify both in each instance but not necessarily across the board, just in that particular quest). But you take it all together in context. I was also recently reminded that it's not just that either, there's also the GM screen (which has different info in the EU vs. NA) that could also be seen as supplementing the "general rules." It has to all be taken together in context to figure out the most likely intended meaning.

The EU screen is pretty much useless in the 2nd edition since the trap rules are repeated in the rulebook (and you often want to look them up there rather than refer to the screen, for the extra info about searching, what to do when you find a trap, how to disarm / remove trap tiles, etc).

It was important in the 1st edition, though, because the rulebook didn't include the rules for each type of trap, only a general overview.

The German edition of Space Crusade ("StarQuest") clears up the "Devastator" mystery by describing it in two places as the equivalent of the Plasma Gun (called the Blackhole Blaster, when translated from the German text).

Thanks, I had always wondered about that!

Unlike HeroQuest, I stopped playing Space Crusade in my teenage years (mostly because I mangled all the figures trying to use them for Warhammer 40K and rendered my copy of SC unplayable). So I never followed up on the various mysteries and oddities I found in the game.

Back in the day we ruled that the Devastator counted as a combi-weapon, like the one carried by the Chaos Marine leader. If I remember correctly it rolled two red dice but had no special area effect rules. It was the closest thing to a 'generic' heavy weapon we could think of.

I actually owned Space Crusade before HeroQuest, and loved it even more than HQ (heresy I know)... but when I tried replaying it as an adult after painstakingly collecting all the missing parts again, I found it too childish. If I hadn't kept playing HQ, and had come back to it after twenty years' absence, I might have felt the same. Then again, I tried out both HQ and Space Crusade on my younger cousins back in the day (they were older teenagers at the time). They took to HQ but didn't find SC too interesting. So maybe HQ does have that special sauce.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

It was the trap in Flight to the Surface quest from Against the Ogre Horde that I had in mind, but I agree with your comments.

Around the Tool Kit I also agree, aside from Pit and Falling Block traps (that have a tile and it is placed on the board at the point of being found by a search), all other traps are rendered safe at the point of finding them (and even Pit and Falling Block traps may, possibly, be rendered safe if they're triggered by opening a door or chest, possibly) so there is no need for any use of the Tool Kit card, and in the case of the Pit and Falling Block traps where they are triggered by movement onto a specified square and you can use the Tool Kit, the wording seems like it doesn't fit.

The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find. Roll one combat die. On a roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.

If you interpret the function of the card as removing "features" (the associated marker that has already been placed) rather than the actual trap then it doesn't make sense because the trap has already gone off so why would you lose BP (linked to this is the question around why 1BP rather than what the trap type says but bear in mind here that in a hypothesised early version of the game it is possible that all traps caused 1BP loss so it might have been consistent with that at some point in time but never got revised) but if you interpret the function of the card as removing a trap that has not yet been sprung then it would make sense that a failed roll would trigger the trap and the effects would happen, placing the associated marker (despite it already having been placed) and suffering the consequences but as you are on an adjacent square then you wouldn't suffer damage, so the end result would be no damage to the disarmer but "feature" is placed, but the end result on the card is completely the opposite!

I think we both agree with the need to house rule here, and in both cases our house rules involve the concept of a found but not yet triggered (or disarmed) trap the difference is the extent that we go with our tweaking...

Summary of my search/disarm changes

#7 Search for Traps and Secret Doors
Note: The existing “Search for Traps and Secret Doors” action is scrapped.

Handling Secret Doors
If, during movement, a hero steps onto a square next to a secret door marker, then...
If there is a monster in the same room or passage as the hero or next to the hero, then ignore the secret door and allow them to continue their movement.
If there are no monsters in the same room or passageway or next to the hero then stop the hero, their turn ends, and the secret door is revealed. Place an open door piece in the appropriate position and reveal the contents of the area beyond the secret door.

Handling Traps
If, during movement, a hero steps onto a square marked by a trap icon, then...
If there is a monster in the same room or passage as the hero or next to the hero, then the trap is triggered, and the hero suffers the consequences (detailed as per trap type). This ends the hero's turn.
If there are no monsters in the same room or passageway or next to the hero, then stop the hero and tell them that they have found a trap, and they must try to disarm it (see Detect & Disarm below). This will result in either the hero successfully disarming the trap or triggering the trap and suffering the consequences (detailed as per trap type). Either way this ends the hero's turn.

Note: The same rules apply if a hero tries to open a door that is shown as being trapped.

Note: Detect & Disarm uses the common action dice mechanism as follows:
Roll three combat dice shown and succeed if you roll at least one [Toolkit gives an extra die; Dwarf gets two extra dice]

#8 Search Action
A hero may choose to conduct a “search” action in a room (not in a passage) that has no monsters in it and the hero has no monsters next to them.
The EWP will place the hero figure on the nearest trap, if one exists, and the hero player must carry out a detect and disarm roll.
If no traps exist, the EWP will place the hero figure on the square next to the nearest secret door and follow the rules above.
If no traps or secret doors exist, then the hero figure is not moved, and the hero player may draw a treasure card as usual (unless the EWP declares a special treasure from the Quest Notes).
At this point, the room is marked off (any face down marker will do) as searched and cannot be searched again.

#9 Handling Chests
Chests are handled in the same way as Doors. A hero on a square next to a chest may open the chest and loot the contents as part of their turn, this does not count as an action. As with doors the EWP will declare if they are trapped, and the hero must make a disarm roll.