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EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited...

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Kurgan » February 14th, 2025, 12:16 pm

It becomes Philosophical, all too quickly... isn't this the real reason we keep coming here? Not just for lists and facts, but for trying to argue the why of things? :lol:

As Encarmine would remind us... consider what it says, and what it doesn't say. That makes what could be answered in a sentence take multiple pages of discussion to hash out.

Another thought here, again, I'm not seeking to improve upon anything written back in the day, just try to understand it. My goal here is not to create a unified ruleset, just note the differences (or apparent differences) in what it actually says in these various editions. To me the "why" is of secondary importance, though I admit it's interesting too. It's cool to learn how people interpreted them over the years.

I think there comes a point (I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself) being overly analytical about the texts and trying to rationalize imperfections out of existence (or read them in where they don't have to exist). There are some famous examples out there, but take for instance a recent development...

Avalon Hill actually felt the need to print into the First Light rulebook that Furniture doesn't necessarily block movement (not just line of sight, MOVEMENT) ... that is... unless you want it to. I remember a guy on the AH discord arguing this point, saying hey, it never says you can't just pass through furniture. I mean, most of us just assumed you couldn't (because of real life physics), until the Companion App let you toggle on intangible furniture (easy to understand as a debug feature). But who played it like that back in the day?

How could one possibly resolve an issue like that? I mean they have a point, it never says you can't walk through bookshelves and tables in the rules anywhere. Obstructed line of sight only seems to ever reference a door (open, its clear, closed, it blocks) or a wall. But the very fact that Avalon Hill put magical items into Jungles of Delthrak that (for the first time) let you pass through furniture, indicates they assumed (rightly) that this was never a question for most players.

I could kind of see a little more why they bothered because First Light uses flat tiles (as most dungeon crawlers before HeroQuest did back in the day, if not printed directly on the board!) rather than 3d models. In the mechanics of the game it's not feasible for the Dwarf figure to balance on top of the weapon's rack (though he can still balance on top of other things without too much difficulty), but maybe he's just standing on the tile, why not? I know, not everything Avalon Hill decides has any relevance to the old game rules because Avalon Hill didn't create the old game. I've argued with them too disagreeing with how they interpret things from the past sometimes (though there it's more like I don't LIKE how they use Courage, that I think it should operate differently than they intend, even though I can accept that's how they intend it to work now). They absolutely did change the text from the NA edition in 2021, and they changed it yet again in 2025. Why change it? To make their preferred interpretation, their intention, more clear, even knowing anyone could change it, or unintentionally misread it into something else.

So there you go. Elixir of Life was never explained in depth in the NA edition. I could easily imagine it was probably intended to bring a dead hero back to life who had died in that same quest (who had failed the other methods of escaping death present in that edition), and First Light once again was a place where they revised the text to further imply that understanding. Does that mean a person can't read it some other way? Absolutely not. The fact that they left it so vague invites a variety of interpretations and over the years people have their favorites. So you give the opportunity to players who would jump at the chance to have two Barbarians in a quest, or revive the name of an old favorite who died several adventures ago.

The whole walking up to a chest to open it is one of those things I can easily see as something that was probably "always intended" but it was never actually written down. Yeah, I mean, here I can be overly pedantic and analytical and stubborn and say, well it doesn't say that "looking into a chest" or "opening a chest" requires you be next to it, does it? Just like it never says you can't pass through a fireplace or a cupboard as you move through the dungeon. Is that probably what somebody had in mind at one time? Sure, I can easily imagine that. But clearly, later, it's not what was intended. Even Stephen Baker himself admitted this. You can say, oh well, maybe he's trying not to confuse people because he's working on the new HeroQuest now that has different rules... or maybe he just doesn't remember exactly what he had in mind (or wrote down) 35 years ago. But I still consider that a big clue that despite the logic, the realism, and the way some kids interpreted it ("open the chest" obviously must mean the character needs to get close and we imagine them doing it and then of COURSE they pick up the treasure, how else could they acquire it?), it means treasure chests are no different than any other search really... the furniture piece is just a CLUE that there might be some special treasure in this room, but watch out, there might also be a trap on it to protect that treasure!

The game logic isn't always consistent with real life physics. When you search a room or corridor, you search the whole thing, regardless of what else is in there with you (as long as there are no enemies present to prevent it!), and yet you do this without moving. When you disarm something you move, but we have people who argue it never says for a furniture trap (in the NA edition, since in EU its removed automatically) that you have to stand ON the square of that piece of furniture, but we always did, since it's fun to balance a figure on top of a chest! But does moving onto that square require a regular role and expending of squares to get there? (here I can see what they probably intended, vs. what it actually says, but I could be overly pedantic and stubborn and say we should assume you can just teleport onto the square and still use your movement roll before or after, assuming your disarm is successful). Sometimes I have to simply bow to the whim of the designer (even if I can homebrew it differently in my game if I prefer some other way) as to how it was intended, and for many things we simply don't have a directive from above. Avalon Hill usually gives a definitive answer when asked, for how they view the game today, but other times they've straddled two positions (here I'm thinking of the coy responses of Twitter "Zargon" whom we now know to have been Avalon Bill all along... allegedly). And yes, anything can be rationalized after the fact... passing through furniture seems silly without magic... is the Barbarian crashing through the bookcase? You could just imagine that he's carefully shouldering his way past it, always staying as close to the path as he can. We don't freak out when a huge hand reaches in from the sky and grabs the door, ripping it from the foundations and slams an open doorway in its place... it's just simulating something in the fantasy of the game world. But little fun things intrude to enhance the experience... there's no rule that says you have to knock the boss figure down when he dies, but it's fun (especially for chess players). To me the walking up to chests is just another one of those fun little simulations, not required, but fun. Even some of my players do it, even though they all know it's not required mechanically.

Why harp on The Trial as a special case? Because it is a special case in that it gets rid of all the cards except the monster deck, meaning no treasure deck. So what happens if you search for treasure? You can't draw a card, so I guess Morcar would say you find nothing? Or does he say you can't search? (there are no secret doors or traps either, so he could just say that every time and give you your "action" back). You can't search for treasure, except in Treasure chests? Players are supposed to figure out that they don't get cards but they could imagine a treasure chest might have... treasure in it, and ask to open it. Etc. But why assume this special arrangement must continue to other quests? I guess a similar issue arises in the Japanese edition where they introduce different levels of magic as the play progresses... at first you get a basic healing spell that can be used over and over, then an intermediate spell that can be used over and over, and finally the familiar cards we all know and love (that can be used up). But it never actually says that the previous spells "go away" does it? So a player could believe he still has all three levels of healing if the GM (Grimdead in this case) allows it!

I don't mind the walk up to mechanic, even though it's not part of the version I play the most. I'm just not convinced it was intended as the universal rule in 2nd edition. Would players of the Trial be thus primed to do the same thing in each quest thereafter? I could imagine that, and that's probably where this all came from (other than a desire for more realistic roleplaying within the game). I'm reminded of another thematic difference between the European and North American versions of the games here... the competitive aspect of the original. The players are "primed" to be rivals, having been put through two (optional) arena battles in 1st edition, and then playing "the Maze" where the entire goal is to get out and get the reward first. From then on them cooperating is kind of assumed, but not required. One of them could go rogue and steal Prince Magnus' gold, preventing the others from getting the reward and become an "outlaw" (and how does that affect their team dynamic for the next several quests?). It's fun to imagine the fallout from something like that. But in the NA edition nope you're not allowed to attack one another, and the game is basically structured so that you would have to go out of your way not to be a team player. But, in the switch from the Maze to the Trial (and erasure of the arenas), even the competitive EU HeroQuest was nudged in the direction of teamwork. So it does set a precedent. I could imagine how players would form habits in that first quest and carry them to others. But I see the lack of cards as a gimmick for that particular quest, similar to the teleportation mechanic of the castle of mystery, or the the bounties of the bastion of chaos. It's just meant for that quest only, but since it's the first quest, it might feel like it should stick around. So is there some ambiguity about it and could I be wrong? Yes, of course, I admit it could be so.

What convinces me that there's some merit to the "walk up to the chest to open it" is how often we find a trap (usually a pit trap) next to a treasure chest. I admit I was less familiar with the EU renditions of GS, KK, ROTWL when it comes to noting instances of this happening. And yet, nowhere, in any version of the game (except the Japanese edition) is it explicitly stated that you must walk up to a chest to open it OR to acquire what is inside. That's an inference, yes, a perfectly reasonable one, from 2nd edition, when looking at The Trial, but in isolation. Why am I trying to make it the exception, rather than draw a general rule form it? Because typically that's not how it works with any HeroQuest rule. Yes, there are exceptions (unarmed combat for example, but only in the NA edition, and it comes up pretty rarely overall). You generally don't have to reference a specific quest to find out how something works, instead it's part of the general rules, or it's on a card.

I know that for the NA edition Mike Gray met with Stephen Baker at the beginning, but otherwise Baker wasn't involved in those versions (and especially not the 1992 expansions I'm about to discuss below since by then he had left Hasbro), but still, I think it helps illustrate my point. I think the short version is that if it was the universal rule, I'd expect some kind of statement about it being changed. Instead it seems they were thinking of changing it TO walking up to chests (but didn't, in the published version). That makes it seem less likely it was always there, and more that they were thinking of adding it.

Frozen Horror infamously references a past quest (in the same booklet at least) about how a specific tile room works, which annoys players to this day, but there it is. To me the "trap next to a treasure chest" is just an error, a brain bug, perhaps a remnant from that "it's logical to do it this way" memory of some time in which it was intended to be the treasure searching mechanic to include moving up next to the chest. Instead you have a perfectly serviceable mechanic already for such things, the furniture trap. A search for traps will reveal (and in EU editions, automatically remove) any other traps in the room already. The only time such a trap will be effective is either if the player is obsessed with miming their opening of the chest OR if there are monsters in the room and they are trying to gain the treasure in the midst of battle (which also won't work because you have to search for treasure to get the treasure!). At least when it comes to Frozen Horror, where there is the infamous example of the arc of spear traps surrounding a non-trapped chest, I can understand why they did it, when seeing the draft notes for that quest... they wanted the heroes to get thrown off, but they hadn't thought it through completely and were contemplating changing the rules to require movement up to the chest to search it which they acknowledged would be prevented by having a monster in the room.

In the '92 drafts the US designers also discussed allowing the searching of individual furniture pieces separately (traces of this idea can be seen in how the Elf quest pack describes the Avenger sword in Quest 1 in the notes). Why bother if these were already established rules? Yes, I know, this is the NA edition, and we don't have the draft notes to view for the European sets, unfortunately. But what we do have are Stephen Baker's comments, and that combined with the logic of the game (departing from real world logic) it makes sense to me. Others can disagree of course. That's why I'm so stuck on it, it's not really a big deal. It means the difference of maybe an extra turn to get the treasure. I'm not sure it does anything to increase or decrease the competition aspect of it all (you could place a chest in a corner so that it would only be possible for two heroes to flank it, but the first one is going to get the treasure anyway, while otherwise the first to search for treasure is going to get it). Now if you limit treasure searches to one per room, period, I guess there's competition there. The NA edition had the competition for the "first" search since that gets whatever is in the notes (but sometimes the card can be better than that reward anyway, depending upon the hero).

Some things in the booklet are just not explained. Take for example how in the NA edition when you find certain things, like the Wizard's Cloak it says this should be given to the Wizard. Well what does that statement mean exactly? Does it mean that the Barbarian should roll, move adjacent to the Wizard (making sure no monsters are adjacent) and then on his turn transfer the item? Or does it mean that Zargon says "okay Wizard, even though another Hero found this, you have it now, write it on your sheet" and shows the card? Or does it just mean that only the Wizard can use it, so he "should" get it just in some objective moral sense, because it does nobody any good to hang onto it but him? Which was probably most likely intended by the designers? Or are they just leaving it up to the GM, what he thinks is best?

Or what about the directive to "divide large gold rewards" to "avoid conflict between players"? Well heroes can't fight each other in the NA edition, so do they mean arguments at the table between the humans playing the game? I guess so! What does "divide" mean? Does that mean if I open a chest that has 500 gold, I should immediately divide it (or be ordered by Zargon to do so) among the hero players? (each hero adds 125 gold to their sheet)? Or does it mean later, between quests, we remember that everyone should get 125, not the one guy keep all 500?

Again I'm sure the designers had a specific interpretation in mind for all of these things, but because they didn't actually write it down, it's left up to us to imagine it. So in a sense we "really" should be doing this just with quotations only. As soon as we paraphrase we're interpreting it. Oh it says here your playing piece is removed from the board when your body points reach zero. Oh but this one says your hero dies when he gets killed. Okay fair enough.

Sorry, again not to promote an argument. People are going to disagree with me, that's part of the discussion, I accept it.


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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Kurgan » February 14th, 2025, 1:31 pm

Sorry @Zenithfleet, I kind of brushed over your post (and your updates to it), let me give it a good response that isn't totally a line by line "refutation" (those can get tiresome, can we agree on that?). I actually agree with many things you wrote.

Zenithfleet wrote:Oh yeah--I should probably note that there are a few EU players who reckon you can only search for treasure once per room in the 2nd ed UK/EU rules. However, this appears to be a house rule or assumption, as I can't find any mention of it anywhere. If anyone has evidence to back it up, please let me know!


Agreed.

Zenithfleet wrote:Spells...
I don't think it's a big deal if people interpret it as any shield, but I think a specific shield was the intended meaning.

The same thing for Sleep.

Note that Sleep is, I think, the only base game EU spell card that doesn't say to discard it after use--probably due to lack of space. However, again, the rulebook says each spell can be used just once in a Quest and is then discarded. Unless Sleep said it could be used multiple times, the basic rule comes into play and it's a once-per-quest spell.


I agree with all of this. The pedantic position would say, if it doesn't say it, then it's up for grabs. But I can agree that's what they probably meant, even if they could have stated it more clearly. A terse explanation would have fit on the card. I could imagine in the testing they did, they must have figured if enough people seemed to understand what they intended, they figured no further revision was necessary. Later editions could be changes, or (like with Avalon Hill's First Light) attempts to clarify what people were getting "wrong."

Another aside? Well I never...! :oops: May I also say here something that's been bugging me for awhile. I LOVE Doug Hopkins. He comes across as a very cool guy, a very passionate designer and player, and I really think he's doing an amazing job on Avalon Hill's HeroQuest team (he is not taking Chris Nadeau's aka Encarmine former spot, but he is kind of a visible "leader" for lack of a better term, though he'll always clarify he's a writer and designer) but as I know he writes the rules in the new HeroQuest, sometimes I feel like he has trouble conveying what he means with these things. Maybe it's not entirely his fault, like somebody else prepares the copy that goes onto the cards and such. But you can see it in the playtests... he'll write something, especially when it's something brand new, and people will misunderstand it, and then he'll change it later. I am glad he revises it (and if revisions were not allowed, I'd be in big trouble on forums... the first thing I write is rarely perfectly what I meant to say!), but that ambiguity thing strikes hard. I guess the online HQ community is so full of pedantic, analytical types, that it makes his job more difficult (sorry Doug!). Maybe if we had social media, discord, etc. back in the 90's there wouldn't be so many of these endless rule debates that we have now (and lets be real, aren't they just a little bit fun to have?). :mrgreen:

Zenithfleet wrote:I have nothing to add here except that I heartily dislike the 1st/2nd ed EU character sheets with that big useless crest and banner. The revised one in the Adventure Design Kit is a lot more practical if you're playing a long series of quests.

However, putting my personal feelings aside, the original character sheets are probably better for young players completely new to HeroQuest, who might just be playing a one-off or a handful of games. They don't look too intimidating, and they give them the chance to do some pencil drawing while waiting for the game to be set up. I've got old character sheets from ancient days that have all kinds of silly heraldic symbols on them (and in some cases names of songs that were popular at the time :lol: ).


Absolutely love this. I had a similar reaction. Thinking about it how a kid would react explains it neatly. It's the same reason why HeroScape setup feels boring and tedious for adults, but kids love it as much as playing the game itself.

Thanks for the Traps part, I should have added more there, like that the fallen block can kill a character if there's no clear space to flee to. More revisions when I have time...!

Zenithfleet wrote:As noted earlier, one other difference between 1st and 2nd edition UK/EU rules is that in 1st edition the specific trap information is on the inside of the screen. In 2nd ed its still there, but it's also included in the rulebook for reference.


I forgot about the screen entirely... oops. Great point. Agree with the general sentiment that there's a hierarchy of explanation... the rulebook is number one, the base... and then you add onto that the cards, and the quests provide further exceptions, but the GM screen is right up there with the rulebook as far as general principles for the game (except when modified by exceptions in the booklet, etc). The NA screen says monsters can't attack diagonally or move through heroes, but of course we know they can... when the exceptions are provided in various expansions or quest notes for example. AH really took to heart the concept that you can't assume people own or have played all of the various expansions, so if something was only explained in one quest, you've got to explain it again in your new book (that is, after they finished remaking the Elf and Barbarian packs which were written as part of a larger scheme to get people to buy the four and put them together, so focusing on one hero as the star in each).

Zenithfleet wrote:Quests

Although it may be beyond the scope of this topic, the quests also differ a fair bit between UK and NA rules. Many small changes were made. I think the NA Melar's Maze has a couple of Orcs in it, for example, whereas it's a purely Undead-themed quest in the UK rules.

The single biggest difference in the quests I can think of is that in Kellar's Keep, UK/EU version, there's a unique 'bonus quest' (Belorn's Mine) that players can miss out on if they don't explore enough. The previous quest has two exit doors. One leads to the next 'story' quest, skipping Belorn's Mine. The other one goes to Belorn's Mine and then proceeds to the next story quest. Since Belorn's Mine has a fair bit of gold in it, it's effectively a reward for exploration--a classic theme of HeroQuest.

For some reason the NA version changed this by sealing one of the exit doors and forcing players to go through Belorn's Mine. That way they don't miss out on a Quest. But on the other hand, a massive reward for exploration--a whole extra Quest!--is lost.


Edit: I'll have to look more closely. I do own a copy of 1st edition now, so I don't have to go to the bother of looking it up online (or scanning a printed out version) for such interesting little differences.

The only time a "rule" was ever mentioned wherein monsters were supposed to be grouped thematically (ie: no mixing of undead and greenskins in the same area) was in the Adventure Design Kit ('91), but there it seemed a suggestion more than a hard demand. This was absolutely not followed in the '92 expansions, and I'm forgetting already but possibly the Japanese edition too.


Zenithfleet wrote:Monsters have only 1 Body point each not only to avoid bookkeeping, but to allow a lone player a fighting chance of taking out a Mummy or a Chaos Warrior. You might kill the last monster in the room only for your brother or sister to nab all the treasure. Playing competitively encourages making mistakes (like failing to carefully search for traps) because you're in a hurry lest someone else get the goodies before you. And of course, players can attack each other if they want to.


I hadn't considered those points in regards to competition, good idea. A tougher monster with more body points is going to encourage the heroes to work together to take him down. Haste to greedily grab the treasure leads to falling for more traps!

Zenithfleet wrote:Unfortunately, if the players learn to work together efficiently, or if there's only one player controlling all the heroes, the UK/EU base game becomes too easy. Early reviews identified this problem and suggested house rules based on whether your players were competitive or cooperative.


I'd love to see some of those house rules. Mike Gray's team on the NA edition also considered those GS quests to be "too easy" (and we still see that complaint today for AH's version). KK, ROTWL upped the difficulty, but the NA exclusive expansions swung way too far in the other direction. Interestingly, the drafts indicate Frozen Horror was intended to be easier than the published one, but Mage of the Mirror was actually way harder (in draft form) than it became in the release version. I always thought BQP was further along, finished first, and harder than EQP, but one could imagine it going the other way. In the final analysis, the Barbarian pack ended up being harder (and the modern Elf pack got nerfed more, officially)... and both overdid it. "Into the Northlands" was a nice day one patch, that still left Zargon to re-tool the campaign as he saw fit, but it doesn't go far enough on its own in my humble opinion. With very few exceptions (see the end battle of ROTDM) I think Avalon Hill has struck a very even balance of increased difficulty with their creations. Even First Light provides a nice progression of difficulty. On the opposite extreme is the Japanese version where the first few quests are almost over the top with the hand holding, I guess to coax completely green players into it, and then they toss absolutely craziness at you in the middle and at the end. Imagine splitting up the party and forcing a lone hero to fight a "Trial"'s worth of monsters without help! I guess that's another lesson about "teamwork" (though I hadn't thought about magics that might still work, in spite of that). The truly easiest version of HeroQuest is the PC game, at least the DOS version I've played (see the thread where I go over the many rule oddities in it).

Zenithfleet wrote:The NA edition enforced cooperation on the players. Therefore it had to beef up the dangers and the monsters to compensate. However, there are legacy issues in the quests because they were designed around a different philosophy.


I also agree with that. That's why it's super interesting to see Stephen Baker writing brand new quests, for a ruleset he didn't create, in something like First Light.

Zenithfleet wrote:Also, arguably the NA edition was trying harder to be a light RPG, whereas the UK/EU game was more aggressively a boardgame. I don't recall any suggestion that the Evil Wizard player should curate things or ensure an exciting experience for the players in the UK/EU game. You're a player of a boardgame--you're out to win. Use what you're given and kill them all!


The Japanese edition is the epitome of this. I'm not so sure I see the role playing element any stronger in the NA edition vs. the EU, unless we're talking about reading the rulebook out loud. The games are pretty much written the same, except in a few cases lines of lore are stripped out for the NA edition. Sure, we lose the world map, but all of the place names that were referenced in one are referenced in the other. I guess the competitive aspect of dungeon crawling reminds me most of beat 'em up arcade games (not like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, I'm talking like Double Dragon or Final Fight). The kind where you're not really supposed to fight one another, but you can, and for some people that's fun, but ultimately it makes the game harder for the players if they get in each other's way. The PvP isn't truly fair because it's still based on fixed turn order. It would be fun to watch a group go through and each time the Barbarian kills everyone and wins the goal, then the next quest you start with a full party again and the same thing happens (but maybe some time the Wizard gets lucky and he wins?).

Don't get me wrong, I love this discussion with you guys. I hope none of it is coming across as wrong wrong wrong I hate you, because it's not meant to be that. |_P
Last edited by Kurgan on February 16th, 2025, 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Zenithfleet » February 15th, 2025, 10:15 am

First a quick reply about old-school magazine articles!

Kurgan wrote:
Zenithfleet wrote:Unfortunately, if the players learn to work together efficiently, or if there's only one player controlling all the heroes, the UK/EU base game becomes too easy. Early reviews identified this problem and suggested house rules based on whether your players were competitive or cooperative.


I'd love to see some of those house rules.


The house rules I was thinking of were suggested in an issue of Games International (the preceding issue had a review of HQ).

Last issue’s review pointed out some problems with this game. The following amendments improved the game greatly for us:

For a lone adventurer, or any number of non co-operative players - No change

For two co-operative adventurers - At the end of each of his turns, Morcar rolls a combat die. If the result is a ‘white shield’, he may place a wandering monster anywhere on the board, in any room or corridor that the players have visited but no longer occupy. If such an area does not exist, Morcar does not place a wandering monster.

For three or four co-operative players - As above, plus - increase the ‘hit points’ of orcs, fimirs, zombies, and all ‘one off’ monsters by one hit point. Increase the hit points of chaos warriors and the dreaded gargoyle by two.
[I think they meant to include Mummies in that list but forgot! - Zen]

The effect ofthe first ofthese adjustments is to speed up the adventurers, since the more turns they spend on the quest, the more forces Morcar has. This discourages them somewhat from searching every little nook and cranny for traps and treasure.

The second amendment gives the Morcar player a chance once the adventurers have obtained some equipment - the barbarian with chainmail, helmet, shield and battle axe, is truly a ferocious sight to behold.


Massive thanks to HispaZargon for the post archiving all these articles and other resources. Legend! |_P
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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Zenithfleet » February 15th, 2025, 11:17 am

Now to make a more general observation:

One thing this thread (and others) brings home to me, is that we all have different thresholds for seeing 'implied rules' that aren't clearly spelled out.

BareheadedWarrior and I agree about some implied rules that Kurgan disagrees on... but there are other things BW and I disagree about.

Off the top of my head, there are five implied rules in the EU game that have been mentioned in this thread:


1) Gargoyles that spring to life as a trap.

'Bastion of Chaos' has one of these. It springs to life if you open a chest. You can discover what it will do if you search for traps. But you can't search for traps in a room with a monster. So how do you discover what it will do?

The implication is that the Gargoyle must not count as a monster at all. It must be a lifeless statue, treated as furniture, until the trap is sprung. That would also explain why it can't move, attack or be harmed until then.

I doubt anyone has a problem with this one, but it's a good example of the rules implying something without actually spelling it out. I would guess that practically everyone 'gets' this one when they read this Quest for the first time.


2) Treasure chests and how to get gold out of them.

In my view, the EU quests heavily imply that you open chests like opening doors--by moving up to them and asking to open them. The base game quests work fine whether or not you follow this approach... but the expansions are all designed on the assumption this is how chests work, up to and including the 'Dark Company' advanced quest. Traps by chests. Multiple chests in the same room, some trapped and some not, some empty and some with gold. Rooms with chests partially enclosed by blocked square tiles in Ogre Horde. And so on. If you play that you open chests like opening doors, you will never have a problem. If you play that you must search for treasure, though, you'll run into rules snags and odd effects.

Since the rulebook itself is silent on the matter, the only real evidence we have is the quests.

I find this to be a clearly implied rule, having put in the hard yards in that other thread to prove it. At least a few other people accept my evidence (e.g. BareheadedWarrior). But Kurgan doesn't.



3) Falling block traps.

Here, in my opinion, the explicit rules contradict the implications of the quests. The rules in both 1st and 2nd edition EU clearly state (in my opinion) that you can remove the fallen blocks easily, with the Dwarf or a Tool Kit. However, the quest design seems to suggest that the designers thought of the fallen blocks as permanent, dividing up the party or blocking the way back.

I would usually say that explicit rules override implied ones. But in this case, I think the explicit rules are silly, so I prefer to house-rule them and go with what the quests suggest instead.

Not everyone accepts what I say about these rules. Some argue that they make even less sense than I think they do! For them, if I understand their viewpoint, the implications of the quests outweigh what they see as error-filled rules.


4) Equipment cards limited by the actual number of cards?

Here BareheadedWarrior makes a good case that the EU game originally meant to limit the equipment cards to the actual number provided in the game, but that this intention became blurry and vague in the 2nd edition due to the repurposing of some duplicate cards for Wizard items, and by the Adventure Design Kit the designers had all but given up on it.

I think I agree that the intention to limit the cards is still there in the 2nd edition, but the implied rule is just a bit too faint for me to be fully convinced. (I do like the general idea, though, and I've found it useful to have at least one spare set of Equipment cards, so that at least a few of the more commonplace items can have duplicates: e.g. two Shields and two Helmets, but only one Crossbow.)


5) How many Treasure searches per room?

In this case Kurgan and I agree that under EU rules (at least in 2nd edition) you can search as many times as you like. But BareheadedWarrior disagrees. He sees an implied rule here that I don't:

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:"one search per room" isn't a house rule (popular or otherwise) it is an official rule. As ZenithFleet pointed out, the rules for HQ aren't all located in the rulebook, there is additional information in the Quest Books, the cards, the screen, and various other components and the number of those components provided. Multiple instructions within the quest books state things along the lines of "any player who searches this room for treasure will find a Spear" or "any player who searches this room for treasure will find Borin's Armour" as only ONE Spear card and ONE Borin's Armour card, you can only search once.


I've never interpreted those lines in the Quest Book to carry that implied meaning.

You can just as easily read it as: whoever searches will find Borin's Armour, but since there's only one Borin's Armour, whoever searches FIRST will take the card. Anyone searching after that will either find nothing (because they reach for a card that has already been taken), or they take a Treasure card instead, depending on how you interpret things. I can't see anything prohibiting the search action itself.

Now, it's entirely reasonable to counter that with: hey, if they meant 'first player to search' then they would have said "The first player who searches..." instead of "Any player who searches..." That's a fair point. But in my view it could equally well be a case of vague wording.

(Amusingly, over in the falling block trap thread, we've had more or less the opposite disagreement: I read the rules as clearly distinguishing 'finding' a trap from 'triggering' a trap, whereas Bareheaded sees that as semantic hairsplitting with no real meaning since they have the same result. :lol: )

In any case, I don't think you find a Quest Notes item with a Treasure search until quest 3 (assuming chests are opened like doors). So first-timers would play 'The Rescue of Sir Ragnar' incorrectly, not having yet encountered any Quest Note that suggests you can only search once per room.

Another question arises: what about passages? If you can only search for treasure once per room, can you only search once per passage? What if you search at an intersection?

Finally, the EU game tried to avoid book-keeping wherever possible, except on character sheets. The monsters only had 1BP each to avoid this, and when multiple BP monsters were introduced they gave players boxes to check off. It was designed to be easy for young players to handle. If the game had a 'one search per room' policy, I would have expected to see some physical way to track that rather than relying on memory. For example, they might have provided a set of markers that you could place, one per searched room, in order to remember which areas you've cleaned out. But they didn't.


Bareheaded Warrior wrote:I've never yet met a player proud of the fact that his hero is equipped with every possible equipment card despite the fact he has never progressed any further than the first room of The Rescue of Sir Ragnar but instead has repeatedly searched that room only, before leaving the dungeon, spending his gold on equipment, then rinsed and repeat!


Oddly, I've never yet met a player who has ever thought of doing this, even though we've always played that you can search as many times as you like in the same place. Not as a kid and not as an adult. Generally, the first time someone hits a trap or a wandering monster, it gives them a scare (especially when they realise that it's going back in the pile and the deck is getting more dangerous with each search). They become reluctant to search any more in that area. Maybe it's just the sort of people I've tended to play games with. In general, players always seem keen to keep moving and exploring. The pull of "what's through the next door?" is so strong it keeps them from falling behind or wasting too much time searching.

And anyone who did as you suggest would get pelted with the large fluffy dice we keep near the games cupboard to punish munchkinlike metagaming. :twisted:


Again, the observation I'm making here is not to say "you're all wrong and I'm right," but to note that in the absence of an explicit rule, we tend to infer things differently. As much as I forcefully argue that sometimes you need to look at what's implied and find the intended spirit of the rules, unfortunately we can't always agree on what that spirit is...
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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby lestodante » February 16th, 2025, 4:21 pm

Wow! That's an impressive job you did!!!
I just noticed an imperfection:
EU expansions gave different rules when it comes to what happens to a hero who goes down to zero mind points. In KK they are dead, but in ROTWL and ATOH they are considered unconscious (but not dead) and removed from the board for the rest of that quest. The Dark Company (Advanced Quest/Master Edition) allows an Elixir of Life to be found that brings a dead hero back to life with 1 body point left.

I am not sure there is an Elixir of Life in The Dark Company pack.
Also, about Genie spell: I think it worked as a standard spell, requiring the target to be in the spellcaster's line of sight, while Fire of Wrath was the only one specifying "anywhere on the board" and "it will seek out your enemy..."


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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Kurgan » February 16th, 2025, 11:39 pm

The Dark Company (packaged with a 2nd edition set in "Advanced Quest/Master Edition") calls it a "life-giving elixir" that if he "administers it to a dead character player, it will bring him back to life. The revived character can be placed anywhere in the room and will have just one Body point."

Administering it, implies wherever that player died, but then they get to be placed anywhere in the room.

While it's not the same as the NA one from 1990 (which brings the character back with all body and mind points, and doesn't mention "administering" ... though that verbiage is used in the 2025 First Light revision of the card), it's definitely there.
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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Zenithfleet » February 17th, 2025, 1:26 am

lestodante wrote:Also, about Genie spell: I think it worked as a standard spell, requiring the target to be in the spellcaster's line of sight, while Fire of Wrath was the only one specifying "anywhere on the board" and "it will seek out your enemy..."


I'm almost certain that the Genie spell doesn't need line of sight.

It says "open any door on the board ... or attack anyone on the board".

If line of sight were required, it would just say, "open a door ... or attack one monster or player".

Generally, the phrase "on the board" is used to indicate that line of sight isn't needed. If LOS were still needed, then it would be a redundant phrase. You can't have LOS to something that's not on the board.

Besides, genies famously let you make wishes that break the normal rules of the universe. ;)

(I say almost certain because Genie lacks the word 'anywhere' that Fire of Wrath includes. I don't see the word 'anywhere' as some kind of keyword, though. I think it lacks that word simply because it would be needed twice on the Genie card and there might not be enough room. Plus it would make the sentence clumsy. The word 'anywhere' is probably on Fire of Wrath to reinforce the intended meaning, so that the reader is absolutely clear that they don't need line of sight.)
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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Kurgan » February 17th, 2025, 2:16 am

Yeah when I see "on the board" I take that to be no LOS required. The NA edition of Genie says within your line of sight (which isn't necessary to say since spells require LOS by default), but maybe because they were changing the spell from the previous version, or something?
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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » February 17th, 2025, 1:20 pm

Precedence

Kurgan wrote:I forgot about the screen entirely... oops. Great point. Agree with the general sentiment that there's a hierarchy of explanation... the rulebook is number one, the base... and then you add onto that the cards, and the quests provide further exceptions, but the GM screen is right up there with the rulebook as far as general principles for the game (except when modified by exceptions in the booklet, etc)

Zenithfleet wrote:Note that Sleep is, I think, the only base game EU spell card that doesn't say to discard it after use--probably due to lack of space. However, again, the rulebook says each spell can be used just once in a Quest and is then discarded. Unless Sleep said it could be used multiple times, the basic rule comes into play and it's a once-per-quest spell.


I agree with all of this. The pedantic position would say, if it doesn't say it, then it's up for grabs.


I agree with the importance of the hierarchy of explanation, although I think the correct term is "precedence", with the rulebook providing the general rules (sometimes referred to as "global rules") and card text providing specific rules ("local rules") and the card text takes precedence over the rule text, the local over the global. However there are a couple of important points to note around this, for the many games that use this precedence especially HeroQuest.

Card text provides detailed information about a particular subject and MAY contain local exceptions to global rules. Where it does, the card text takes precedence, where it doesn't the global rules continue to apply. As a general principle, the interpretation that enables the local exception to apply, whilst keeping changes to the global rules to a minimum, is the preferred option (kind of like Occam's Razor)

Examples

1) The Goblin Monster Card contains additional "local" information about the Goblin, such as how many dice to roll in various situations, none of which are rule exceptions, they are just additional information about the specific subject.

2) The Staff Equipment Card contains additional "local" information about the Staff, such as the gold coin cost and the number of attack dice to roll, which are not exceptions AND it contains a "local" rule exception that you can attack diagonally which contradicts the rule in the rulebook about being able to attack adjacently only, so when using this equipment card the "local rule exception" takes precedence over the "global rule"

2) The Sleep Spell Card contains additional "local" information about the Sleep spell, such as how it works, who rolls what, what the effects are, but makes no mention at all around discarding after use. As the card contains no mention of discarding after use, then the general rule within the rulebook continues to apply, so the spell is discarded after use. Not mentioning a rule isn't the same thing as stating an exception to a rule. The Staff Equipment Card doesn't mention that you can't use it to cast Ball of Flame spells, neither does it mention that it can be used to produce copious quantities of bananas, which doesn't mean you can, it just means that the general rules apply unless otherwise stated, at least that is the position of this particular pedant.

The Trial

Kurgan wrote:Why harp on The Trial as a special case? Because it is a special case in that it gets rid of all the cards except the monster deck, meaning no treasure deck. So what happens if you search for treasure? You can't draw a card, so I guess Morcar would say you find nothing? Or does he say you can't search? (there are no secret doors or traps either, so he could just say that every time and give you your "action" back). You can't search for treasure, except in Treasure chests? Players are supposed to figure out that they don't get cards but they could imagine a treasure chest might have... treasure in it, and ask to open it. Etc. But why assume this special arrangement must continue to other quests?


This is a consistent and persistent misunderstanding. If you look at the Quest entry for this Quest (at least in the Second Edition) you will notice that there are NO quest exceptions (no rules local to this Quest only that override the general rules in the rulebook) around searching, either for treasure and traps. The Quest does not in any way get rid of all the cards (except Monster cards).

The Second Edition rules of play is written, presumably to help gently ease new players into the game, in such a way that it first presents the introductory rules that cover the basics, which you get to practise in the first quest, and then after you have played the first quest and presumably got the hang of the basic rules, it layers on some additional rules for use in subsequent quests which cover searching (for both treasure, traps and secret doors) and the components required for those rules (treasure cards, trap markers, secret door markers), they also cover casting a spell and introduce the components required for those rules (spell cards).

When playing the Trial you are playing with the introductory rules which do not include the search action or the casting a spell action, as these rules have not yet been introduced to the players, so why would they choose the search for treasure action, when the only actions presented in the rules at this stage are moving and attacking, and the "free actions" of looking and opening?

Players don't need to figure out that they are only allowed to search for treasure inside treasure chests or that they don't get treasure cards, as neither the searching for treasure action or treasure cards have been introduced to them at this stage, they can just use the "free action" of looking and opening to handle doors and chests, both of which you handle by first "opening" (from an adjacent square) and then "looking".

There is no special arrangement that should or shouldn't continue into other quests, there is the basic set of rules that are introduced first, that you use to play The Trial, and then some additional rules that are layered on top of the basic rules that apply along with the basic rules to all future quests.
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Re: EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited

Postby Zenithfleet » February 18th, 2025, 12:16 am

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:The Trial

Kurgan wrote:Why harp on The Trial as a special case? Because it is a special case in that it gets rid of all the cards except the monster deck, meaning no treasure deck. So what happens if you search for treasure? You can't draw a card, so I guess Morcar would say you find nothing? Or does he say you can't search? (there are no secret doors or traps either, so he could just say that every time and give you your "action" back). You can't search for treasure, except in Treasure chests? Players are supposed to figure out that they don't get cards but they could imagine a treasure chest might have... treasure in it, and ask to open it. Etc. But why assume this special arrangement must continue to other quests?


This is a consistent and persistent misunderstanding.
...

When playing the Trial you are playing with the introductory rules which do not include the search action or the casting a spell action, as these rules have not yet been introduced to the players, so why would they choose the search for treasure action, when the only actions presented in the rules at this stage are moving and attacking, and the "free actions" of looking and opening?


Yes, exactly. Kurgan, you need to look at the EU 'The Trial' in the context of the 2nd ed rulebook.

The way it was intended to work was as follows:

A kid gets the 2nd ed UK/EU edition of HeroQuest as a birthday or Christmas present. He's eager to play the game. But the rulebook is intimidating by the standards of family boardgames at the time. A whole fifteen pages?! And there's a second book with maps and extra rules? Most games just came with a leaflet or folded pamphlet. This looks... overwhelming.

He (mostly likely he) reads the rules for the first time. And the rules reassure him that he can play his first game without needing to learn all the rules. This is called the Introductory Game. Phew! That's a relief. He won't have to spend hours puzzling over the rules before he can crack out the game for the first time.

The rules explain how to move and fight. Then the rules say, "Stop here. Play your first game of The Trial."

At this point, the new player has only read six and a half pages of rules.

So he and his family or friends play The Trial. The only things they can do are move and fight. They cannot search. They may not even know that searching exists. They can't cast spells either, because the rules for that haven't yet been introduced.

Most likely everyone dies, and in the process they all learn to hate the Wizard, because without spells he's objectively the worst character. But it uses all the monsters and all the furniture in the box, so it looks flippin' spectacular and impresses everyone.

Then the proud owner of the game, who has the basics figured out, reads the rest of the rulebook and learns how to play the Full Game. This includes the rules for a) searching and b) casting spells.


The 1st edition didn't split up the rules into 'basic' and 'advanced' in this way. But clearly there must have been some feedback indicating that some of the rules were difficult to grasp for the children/family mass-market audience--or at least there were too many rules to absorb all at once--and that they needed to be introduced more gradually. Page 4 says, 'The introductory game is designed to let you play a game without having to cope with all the rules."

As a ten-year-old kid, I found searching quite hard to wrap my head around. What, you don't move, but you somehow check everything in the room or passage? It's an abstraction that isn't intuitive. Another kid my age might not have had the same difficulty, and a kid just one or two years older would probably have been fine. But for me, treating it as an 'advanced' rule made perfect sense.

Of course, if you want to, you can easily play 'The Trial' with searching and spells included. In fact, I would recommend doing so if at least one player knows the HQ rules already and can teach them to the others. But when you're a prepubescent kid in the early 90s trying to figure out this complicated boardgame--which, unlike chess, nobody else can teach you how to play because nobody else understands the game yet either--starting off with only the move and fight rules can be helpful.

Incidentally, I never really thought of 'The Trial' as being part of a campaign. Since the EU 2nd edition told you to only play it as an introductory learning experience without the full rules, I always thought of it as a one-off game of 'HeroQuest Lite', separate from the rest of the quests. It was like the demo version of HeroQuest. If we were going to play a series of Quests, I would sometimes ignore it entirely and start with the Rescue of Sir Ragnar. But the very concept of a campaign or a series of games was an 'advanced' rule. You didn't play other boardgames that way.
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