THE SPIRIT QUEEN'S TORMENT discussion

[j_dean80]

It's ridiculous. There shouldn't be any genders with orcs. They reproduce with spores, even Tolkien understood that!!
Just give me the Fimirs back, but re write their method of reproduction!!!!!!!

I don't mind the original lore. It is fantasy after all and not real life. Makes them more of a bad guy to hate.

[wallydubbs]

I had HeroQuest as a child, but at 6 I was too young to understand to the rules. Pieces were lost, the board and some of the figurines fell into disrepair. A few figurines survived along with some pieces from Battle Masters and Dark World.
Years later my brother and I made a new board with plywood and an end table, applying our own rules as the original instructions were lost.

Later on as I grew more independent and creative the mideaval fantasy genre stuck with me and I started writing a fantasy novel in which I incorporated most of the middle earth species and more. The concept of orc reproduction came to mind and I decided in my world building they would reproduce sexually and designated female orcs as Orcwives... Though marriage wasn't a custom for them, reproduction came in the form of rape. The Orcwives hates their children based on sins of the father, breeding hatred with each passing generation, hence their warlike nature. I understand the traditional approach you guys have, though. I also understand why Hasbro went the way they did. I'm not Woke and against the whole agenda, but I can understand mixing up the hero and monster genders.

[Markus Darwath]

The idea that not all orcs are evil is not 'woke.' It simply allows for greater variation in plot and unexpected twists. I say this for the simple fact that -orcs aren't real-. They're a fantasy invention. 'Woke' has to do with identifying certain real-world groups as perpetual victims and insisting that they therefore be elevated and coddled as a display of "fairness." It just doesn't really apply to made-up species in a fantasy game.
And as far as orcish reproduction; how do you explain half-orcs in D&D? Tolkien is not the absolute and sole source for fantasy lore.

[j_dean80]

Half-Orcs are in Warhammer which is where HeroQuest comes from. So there has to be some sort of reproduction for Orcs. This does not cover the fact that they are born of Chaos and evil by nature according to Warhammer lore.

[Kurgan]

The idea of male and female orcs in heroquest was present back in the day too... see the Marvel Winter Special and the Dave Morris novel (at least the first one). Of course EU fans were spoiled with all this extra official content and lore (even if you didn't leap into Warhammer Fantasy), while NA players were left to use their imaginations.

When I see something new, I am more inclined to go with it if it has some roots from the legacy stuff, I'll admit, as it feels like it would be more at home in that fertile soil.

As for monsters, as a kid I loved monsters, so there were plenty of evil monsters that had be be destroyed, but there were also good guy protagonist monsters and allies too! In HeroQuest, we never really got that far. Not sure how I would have reacted to such an expansion had it been released to my doorstep back then. But it's harder to accept it now after all this time for a lot of people, and that says nothing about a person's politics or morality, it's just your nostalgia about an entertainment franchise. HeroQuest isn't real. Like MST3K, one should 'really just relax.' But then again, if you want to introduce gritty, complex things into your personal spin at your gaming table, you get to do that too!

Many entertainment franchises in recent times have run into this problem where the owners or promoters feel they have to appeal to a certain political niche or want to promote some kind of ideology through their product (and of course often underneath its cynical, hypocritical, insincere), and then use that as a weapon against their customers as the blame when sales slump. It fails, because most of the time the guilt trip method doesn't work to gain back customers who are abandoning an entertainment product. Many companies use guilt based marketing to promote their products (think of the health & beauty industry). Brand loyalty is a huge bias rabbit trail. But the kind of behavior we're talking about tends to make the customers run away even faster. Push them too hard and they will rebel. Most buyers of products don't tend to be political activists who care more about how their membership in a cause looks than what the actual utility of the product. So when it comes to HeroQuest, many reasonable, sane, ordinary fans were understandably skeptical, doubtful or even fearful.

Older folks like me remember "Captain Planet." Now no offense if you grew up with that show and loved it, but it was kind of the poster child for heavy handed political preaching foisted on kids via a mediocre presentation mimicking entertainment. It was the butt of endless jokes about PC culture, etc. But now there are many more "Captain Planets" out there and social media types who try to promote a "join us or else" approach, that is very off-putting to the average customer. We've been down the path before, but if you're someone who lines up perfectly with those ideologies being promoted, consider the temptation to be a bully with an "I'm better than you therefore..." attitude and how it doesn't usually win you friends, only enemies, and cause others who are less zealous to shy away.

Thankfully that trap that has ensnared so many nostalgic revived franchises hasn't happened (nor do I see that happening) with HeroQuest. I haven't played through SQT yet, only studied it, and listened to what others have said, but like everything else you can smooth out the rough edges when it's your turn at Zargon... or skip it entirely, nothing says you have to buy (much less play) every expansion that comes out. But feedback IS important, so send Avalon Hill & Hasbro your constructive feedback on these things.

But maintain vigilance, if you care about HeroQuest, I say. The community is so vast, friendly, creative, and interesting... it's a shame to waste it all on yet another political struggle fad.

Back to orcs... do they love their children? Sure, why not. A mob boss may love his children, even while he's doing evil things to all sorts of other people, so that's not entirely unrealistic. The tragedy of war in real life is that the people on both sides have hopes, dreams, and dignity, but the conflict pushes them to kill each other anyway. If it's just a video game where you don't think about that kind of thing, fine, it's fantasy, nobody actually was harmed in the making of this fiction, and no sane person is going to turn into an actual monster from playing it. (parents still parent their kids, right?)

[cornixt]

I don't mean to interrupt this virtue-signalling pity party, but 3rd edition Warhammer goes out of its way to say that not all orcs and goblins are evil.
Orcs Alignment: "Orcs are for the most part of Evil alignment.
Goblins Alignment: "Goblins are Evil creatures that delight in cruelty and torture. It is possible to come across individuals of more genial temperament, but these are the exception rather than the rule."
So the bard is literally an exception that is allowed for in the lore.

[TheLastChaosWarrior]

I don't mean to interrupt this virtue-signalling pity party, but 3rd edition Warhammer goes out of its way to say that not all orcs and goblins are evil.
Orcs Alignment: "Orcs are for the most part of Evil alignment.
Goblins Alignment: "Goblins are Evil creatures that delight in cruelty and torture. It is possible to come across individuals of more genial temperament, but these are the exception rather than the rule."
So the bard is literally an exception that is allowed for in the lore.

We're just having a civil conversation mate, no need for the name calling.

[Markus Darwath]

I don't mean to interrupt this virtue-signalling pity party,

Who's virtue-signaling? I'm about as anti-"woke" as one gets, but having gendered orcs and orc or half-orc bards just ain't that.

[j_dean80]

I don't mean to interrupt this virtue-signalling pity party, but 3rd edition Warhammer goes out of its way to say that not all orcs and goblins are evil.
Orcs Alignment: "Orcs are for the most part of Evil alignment.
Goblins Alignment: "Goblins are Evil creatures that delight in cruelty and torture. It is possible to come across individuals of more genial temperament, but these are the exception rather than the rule."
So the bard is literally an exception that is allowed for in the lore.

Yes, there are exceptions. But the quest pack makes it seem like evil is the exceptions and there are large communities of "good orcs"

[cornixt]

I don't mean to interrupt this virtue-signalling pity party,

Who's virtue-signaling? I'm about as anti-"woke" as one gets, but having gendered orcs and orc or half-orc bards just ain't that.

Some people consider being anti-woke as a virtue, whatever they mean by it.

And as far as orcish reproduction; how do you explain half-orcs in D&D? Tolkien is not the absolute and sole source for fantasy lore.

I thought that orcs in Tolkien's world were corrupted Elves, so would reproduce the same way that Elves did. I think there was one thing about them possibly being made from slime, but they were never fungus. Half-Orcs were pretty common in Warhammer too, which suggests similar enough physiology to humans even if it isn't explained how they were bred. Female humans aren't mentioned in the bestiary either, I think only Dark Elves get a mention of having females which is not a lot of gender representation for any of the numerous races. In fact, reproduction is almost absent from all creature descriptions other than Fimir. Probably not too weird to exclude it though, it was a book aimed at fighting.