Pass through rock - furniture and monsters

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I generally go with the 3rd approach. You can't count monsters too, that's what Veil of Mist is for.
Otherwise Cloak of Shadows (from Rise of the Dread Moon) wouldn't need to make the distinction that the Cloak possesses the combined power.

I think I agree, as a native "1989 Original" player I would go with approach 1, but if I was a native "1990 US Remake" then approach 3 would be my natural go to approach. However both of these options still leave the following questions unresolved so I'd be interested in your point of view (I have included mine in brackets).

c) Would you allow passage through closed doors (secret or normal) under the influence of this spell? (I would)
d) How would you as EWP handle monsters revealed by this spell that are trapped as they "cannot" open doors? (I would allow monsters to open doors in this situation)
e) How would you handle the situation where squares behind the wall contain taller furniture that presumably blocks the moving figures vision? Would you still reveal the room contents as they look through the wall or make them step into the room, onto the furniture tile first, before revealing the room? (Under approach 1 I would lay out only the tall piece of furniture, under approach 3 I think I would lay out only the tall piece of furniture and would only lay out the rest of the room contents, if they moved "onto" the square occupied by the furniture)

There is a slight difference though. The Dwarf opening a door with a monster immediately inside isn't attempting to occupy the square the monster is in and being halted/rebounded with opaque matter in between. Basically, it could be seen as a question of whether the hero has time to observe the whole room in the instant that he leans through the wall and finds himself with a facefull of monster. Again, seems like a Zargon's call kind of situation depending on the playing style of the group. I could even see someone going as far as using the hero's MP as a basis to decide how much they're able to notice in that situation. Certainly if this were a complex game like D&D the scenario would call for a skill check to determine how much was noticed besides the monster.
I can say that IRL I'm not very good at the game of briefly glancing at a picture and being able to identify what was in it. But again, that leans into the basic question of how much immersion/role-play does the group want in the game, given that HQ is a board game, but is also a dungeon crawler. Presumably, players are choosing HeroQuest precisely because it has a different feel vs. something like Sorry or Monopoly.

I think this is over-complicating the situation.

There is no suggestion that the time spent looking, or any other aspect of the looking function, would be any different whether through an open door or through a wall whilst under the influence of this spell, and the rules already state that other figures do not block seeing.

The Dwarf under the influence of the spell, like the Dwarf opening a door, isn't necessarily attempting to occupy the square the monster is in, he may choose different next steps depending on the outcome of the looking, but initially he is just looking. And the opaque nature of the material is irrelevant as he has already poked his head through it to look and under the influence of the spell he won't be halted/rebounded in his attempt to look, only to move onto the occupied square and we don't yet know whether he will attempt to do that. I don't think you can change the rules for the "looking" aspect based on what the figure may do, or may not do, next following the outcome of the looking. This seems illogical to me, what you see being based on what you choose to do after you have seen.

For me ideas like using the hero's MP as a basis to decide how much they're able to notice in that situation, whilst any house rule can be applied by an EWP at their own table, are too complex to be included in a HQ basic game, and to include them whilst under the influence of this spell, but not include them when looking around a figure in any other situation would just be introducing an inconsistency.

[Kurgan]

The companion app is broken right now (v.2.0-2.1), so it's not the best for comparisons: it won't let you pass through monsters at all (but you can still toggle intangible furniture and pass through them without any special effects on... and treasure chests never impede anyone's movement!). The Elven Cloak of Passage in the app would seem to indicate it should work exactly like Pass Through Rock (but for three turns instead of one, and only for the Elf as it gives the generic "no line of sight" error message if anyone else tries to use it) and yet within the app the Cloak won't let you pass through stone blocks... only walls and doors, while the Pass Through Rock Spell/Scroll will let you pass through those too.

[TheLastChaosWarrior]

I just wish they would add a feature to get the Heros back to the finish door after the Quest is finished finished without having to manually move each one all the way back to the start. Very tiresome.
About to start quest 9 and 10 in FH in a few days, can't wait!!!!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I've taken a fresh look at this, so here goes...

Note: I'm aware that there are an increasing number of different HQ variations so this is the text on the card from my "classic" set

"Pass through Rock"
This spell may be cast on any one player. That player may then move through walls when he next moves. The player may move through as many walls as his movement will allow. The spell is then discarded.

As others have said before me on this very long thread, the text on the card indicates that the player (technically "the character") can move through walls, which appears to be an example of card text taking precedence over the general rules, the general rule in this context being that characters cannot move through walls (the light grey lines on the board).

I have always played that the Hero cannot pass through furniture or monsters. If a Hero tries to enter an unexplored room and there is furniture or a monster on the other side of the wall, I just tell the Player that they can't move into that square. They don't lose any of their movement and can continue moving elsewhere.

The card says "walls". Again, there is no reason to debate over anything the card says. In conjunction with the rulebook and the fact that card text overrules rulebook text, the card is as one-way-interpretable as they come. It's simple and clear.
Now, do some re-writes for those special cases that you obviously want to be there but that just are not.

So for me if a character under the influence of this spell indicates that he wishes to move through a wall into an unexplored area (from an adjacent square), then I would follow the same process as if he had opened a door into the unexplored area, first "revealing" the contents of the room or passage and then allowing him to move as usual, the virtual "door" sealing behind him.

Nothing on the card suggests to me that the usual rules for moving through furniture or monsters would not apply in this situation.

That said I still think there are a couple of areas that are less clear, or are clear but perhaps don't result in as smooth gameplay as I would like.

1) Can a character under the influence of a "Pass through Rock" spell move through a blocked square marker (whether it was placed as a result of a falling block trap or was already on the Quest Map)?

2) Can a character under the influence of a "Pass through Rock" spell move through a closed door without opening it? (I allow this on the grounds that closed doors are in walls)

3) Can Monsters placed on the board as a result of a character under a "Pass through Rock" spell, which are trapped in a room with only closed doors, open one of them? Strictly speaking (according to the rules) they can't but I do allow them to as I think it results in better gameplay.

[wallydubbs]

1) Can a character under the influence of a "Pass through Rock" spell move through a blocked square marker (whether it was placed as a result of a falling block trap or was already on the Quest Map)?

2) Can a character under the influence of a "Pass through Rock" spell move through a closed door without opening it? (I allow this on the grounds that closed doors are in walls)

3) Can Monsters placed on the board as a result of a character under a "Pass through Rock" spell, which are trapped in a room with only closed doors, open one of them? Strictly speaking (according to the rules) they can't but I do allow them to as I think it results in better gameplay.

1.) With Pass Through Rock I'd allow heroes to move through brick wall tiles, a falling block rubble tile, Stone Wall (Spell from Wizard's of Morcar), even the Rolling Stone Boulder in Spiral Passage of Keller's Keep. Even if the hero under the spell passes through a Falling Block Trap, he'll set off the trap but won't take any damage.

2.) I would allow Pass Through Rock to work on closed doors too.

3.) This depends on the circumstances. If a hero uses Pass Through Rock to check inside a room or rooms and the heroes are in the adjacent, I could allow the monster to see the hero and follow him back into the adjacent room. But if the hero uses this spell to check rooms that aren't immediately accessible, suppose they access the room from a hallway but need to go through a few more rooms before actually breaching the room, I wouldn't allow the monster to check out of the room and access unexplored rooms on the map just to get to the other heroes... If you understand what I mean by this.

[Kurgan]

They fixed the app. And now you have a potion (in JoD) that lets you pass through furniture, monsters, and hindering terrain... which you could combine with the rock passing to effectively pass through everything, fall through the board and the table, onto the floor, through the earth... (okay just kidding about that last part, heh...)

My memory was fuzzy... the 1st Dave Morris novel (Fellowship of Four, 1991) states Pass Through Rock is for passing through a solid object and describes the spell's use as "slipping through the wall/door", "like a ghost", "drifting ethereally." The 2nd novel (Screaming Spectre, 1992) described it like this (spoiler):

32
The spell allows you to pass straight through the heavy granite blocks of the wall. It is like moving through cold water for an instant. Emerging on the other side, you notice a warrior in black armor standing beside the gate.
...

121
The spell makes you as insubstantial as a ghost, allowing you to slip through the solid granite masonry of the walls. The sensation is eerie – like passing out of bright sunshine into an icy block of shadow for an instant. Emerging on the other side of the wall, you cancel the spell and look around you. Turn to 145

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Wallydubbs,

On point (3) I agree this may depend on the circumstances, and is certainly something of a grey area. Personally I think if you take the chance of exposing areas containing monsters then you'll activate those monsters, this balances the reward of additional information with the risk of releasing a wave of monsters, after all one of the fundamental rules of magic is "don't call up what you can't put down"!

On point (1) I'm not 100% sure of my position, I tend to oscillate through different positions over the years...
a) a blocked square isn't a wall (which is defined in the rulebook as the lines between rooms) so you can't move through it
b) a blocked square in the same rulebook is defined as representing where a ceiling has collapsed (I think underground areas use the term "roof" but anyway) or where additional walls have been built, so they could be walls, so possibly can be moved through, although we can't tell which are walls and which are collapsed ceilings

The other reason(s) for my hesitance in allowing movement through blocked square tiles, (i) is that the rulebook specifically prohibits movement through them and the spell card text doesn't mention an exception to this rule, (ii) as a blocked square marker fills a square, rather than a line between squares then to move through it you would actually have to be momentarily on that square, which feels different to looking through a wall that you are adjacent to, in the sense that you could look into the blocked square from an adjacent square, but would then have to move into the blocked square to discover what, if anything lay on the other side, not clear why but this feels like it has the potential to cause additional challenges that don't crop up in the standard wall scenario.

Note: this is slightly different in the 1990 NA remake as two different tiles are provided the one representing "walls" and the one representing blocked squares (collapsed roofs or fallen blocks) but I was referring to the classic edition in my OP

I think from memory, and I'll check later, that the wall of stone spell from WoM is placed between squares, like a standard wall, if so then I would agree with you that could be moved through.

The Falling Block Trap scenario I've seen raised before on this topic, but if a hero under the influence of this spell moved onto a falling block trap trigger square then the actual block falls onto an adjacent square so I'm not sure this is actually a viable scenario. It may be technically possible for a situation to occur where a falling block falls onto a hero under the influence of the spell, but it feels highly unlikely and a little contrived...

[wallydubbs]

Bareheaded Warrior,

As a Zargon I try to make it a fun experience for the heroes. I want them to survive but at the same time make it challenging. If the monsters are activated by a hero with Pass Through Rock and I see no harm in bringing out these monsters early I'll let them open the door. But if I feel opening the door might lead to devastating consequences to them, I may hold back. But to your point I can understand suffering the consequences of magic. Though this spell already comes with consequences. I recall playing Barok Tor Barrow of the Witch Lord where the heroes were roaming down down the hallway that leads to 3 false doors. Three of the heroes were on par to get to the first room but the Dwarf was lagging behind all the way back at the turn of the corner. The Wizard cast Pass Through Rock so the Dwarf could run through a full room of stone a get the jump on whatever monsters are in that room while the other heroes would come in through the door. They were not expecting it to be a false door. The Dwarf rolled just enough to make it into that room only to find that it wasn't a room at all and was stuck in stone!
However when the heroes play Return to Barak Tor this would, in fact, be a room, adjacent to the one you find the Witch Lord. So I felt compelled give them a pass and make it a room. So I put a giant undead wolf in there and made the heroes fight it.

I'm not inclined to follow the rulebook word-for-word. I'm o me e of the guys that allows 1 search per room, not 1 search per hero. Plus I have an extended Treasure Deck and don't feel the need to return cards to the deck and reshuffle every time. So to me, the exception is in the spell's name "Pass Through Rock," it's a brick wall, by all means, pass through. In fact there are a few quests when I even dare the heroes to do it: In the "Fire Mage" quest there's a brick wall in the bottom hallway that cuts off the undead Southwest section of the board from the Southeast section where you fight the Orcs. When the heroes see it I tell them "There was once a passage way here but it has since been closed up by the Orcs," letting the heroes know one can safely go through if they do deem to use the spell.

You're probably playing with the European board where a Falling Block Trap is triggered to an adjacent square. In the North American version if you trigger it you suffer the consequences. I do recall, though, in Against the Ogre Horde a falling block trap is triggered once a certain door is open, I think it's in Flight to the Surface.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I don't stick to the rules to the letter (hence my house rules, link below in my signature) but I think it is important to fully understand the rules as written, where possible, before making changes.

Yes, there is a falling block trap triggered when you open a certain door, in Flight to the Surface, but I'm not sure how that makes any difference, as the hero whose turn it is, the one who is moving, opening the door and getting hit by the trap, how likely is it really that that same hero also happens to be under the influence of this spell on that turn AND still chooses to open the door rather than just use his ability to pass through the wall!

Possible, yes, but likely, I don't think so.

[cardcardigan]

As far as the thread goes, I would reveal the room as soon as the hero passed into it and just let them try to settle where they may using the remainder of their movement. No reason to make one of the wizard's spells even more of a gamble. Most if the time they can double back and reenter from a slightly different position if they meet obstacles like furniture or monsters but whatever; push stuff around if that's what it takes. I like the idea of the wizard ambushing an orc through a wall with an extra attack die for surprise. The bright young lad is as good for a tumble as anybody else joining him in his suicide mission.

I just wish they would add a feature to get the Heros back to the finish door after the Quest is finished without having to manually move each one all the way back to the start. Very tiresome.
About to start quest 9 and 10 in FH in a few days, can't wait!!!!

I just back out of the quest, get the reward from the rulebook and mark it as complete. Haven't used the app in a while but this always worked for me.