Elixir of Life: Vague, but useful

[The Admiral]

It specifically mentions it being administered to a dead hero from this I would take that it cannot be administered BY a dead hero, but must be administered by a living hero, who has the item, so I wouldn’t play it as per your first sentence.

Yeah, but we just treat it as an all Body and Mind point healing potion if used by a Hero to save them from death. Just like the Potion of Restoration from Mage in the Mirror, except without the wolfie bit. Probably technically incorrect, but it's what we do.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Another consideration that has cropped up recently

If you go with spellcasters needing to have a physical spell book to prepare their spells between quests, then how would you handle a spellcaster killed, their equipment lost and then they are resurrected using the Elixir of Life..?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

So on balance, taking into consideration the comments so far, I'm thinking of going with the following:

Elixir of Life
A life-giving elixir that can be administered as an action by a hero adjacent to the corpse of a dead character, bringing them back to life, with one Body point.

And then clarify the piece around eliminated heroes, their cards and corpse

Eliminated characters and monsters are immediately removed from play. Any Equipment or gold the eliminated character had may be picked up by another character, who searches for treasure in the room or passage in which the character was eliminated. However, the evil wizard player may also claim the Equipment and gold if, on his next turn he moves a monster into the same room or passage, in which the character was eliminated.
If a monster picks up the possessions of the eliminated character they are removed from the game, the monster may not use either the Equipment or the gold.

Eliminated characters and monsters are immediately removed from play. Mark the square of a dead hero with a skull token. Any Equipment, Quest Treasure or Treasure cards the eliminated character had may be picked up by another character, who moves onto the square or searches for treasure in the room in which the character was eliminated. However, the evil wizard player may also claim the cards if, on his next turn he moves a monster onto the marked square on which the character was eliminated.
If a monster picks up the possessions of the eliminated character they are removed from the game, along with the skull marker and the corpse of the deceased, the monster may not use either the Equipment or the gold.

No corpse no revival, monsters take cards also take corpse, so no revival without your gear.

In terms of the point made about "wasting such a valuable item when you get a free new Hero anyway", the key point is timing, you get a replacement hero anyway but NOT until the next Quest, being a hero down for the remainder of the current quest may have a knock on effect of failing the Quest objective and/or causing more hero deaths which in turn increases the chances of a TPK so this could provide a very useful way of shoring up the first domino!

[Kurgan]

After a nice discussion with HispaZargon and keeping in mind the "replacement hero with new name comes in the next quest" in NA rules as written (and that death saves are a thing) I think the most plausible "intention" for the Elixir of Life originally was to allow you to instantly return the dead hero to the side of the one using the Elixir if said hero died within the same quest (or within the same multi-part quest).

This interpretation eliminates concerns about "carrying the body." They wouldn't reappear with any gear since that gear is "dropped" in the place where they died, so you only have to worry about retrieving that stuff (if they died inside solid rock, then nobody can claim it). Monsters claim the gear if they died alone with monsters or monsters later entered that area before a hero (or merc). Granted, the "mind point death makes you unconscious" thing still means possibly carrying heroes out of the quest (like a heavy chest, or just they are assumed to have been carried out if some survivors of the party wins?).

That said, it's vague enough that Zargon can decide how it is used. The second appearance of the Elixir of Life is in the Dark Company, a multi-part quest under the EU rules, but in that one the Hero comes back with only 1 BP remaining.

In the case of a total party kill, if the last hero who dies is the one HOLDING the elixir, is he allowed to use it as a last ditch death save as if it were a healing potion or healing spell? I'm thinking the intention was not to allow this as its meant to be used on another dead hero (someone alive has to be the one administering it). But again...

Players get attached to the character they named, so giving them a chance to return that named character is a neat thing (even if it just means on the next quest the "new" Barbarian has the same name as the one that perished in the middle of the previous quest). But if you don't mind suddenly having an extra hero running around for a quest, let your imagination and experience be the guide... the Elixir is so rare and wonderful, my personal inclination is to allow it some leeway.

PS: What about in a solo quest? No worries there that you'll have duplicates of the same character type! Maybe the Elf is in a tight spot and he brings back "Steve the Barbarian" in his time of need? (and has a spare weapon to share)

[wallydubbs]

From a GAME perspective of practicality, I'm pretty sure the easiest interpretation is what they're going for. If a hero died 5 quests ago, that hero stays dead, if a hero is killed in a quest where you have the Elixir of Life, you may bring him back. We don't really have to overcomplicate things.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Agreed and it isn't my intention to over-complicate things, but when playing with the Elixir of Life, and indeed in general, I like to be able to anticipate some of things that could arise in play, check for official guidance and make sure I understand it, and where that is missing float the gaps here so that we as a collective group of EWPs can determine ways to plug those gaps which are simple and don't have unintended consequences, thus minimising the chance of issues cropping up during play and having to plug gaps on the fly which is unlikely to be the best solution.

Some of the issues discussed I'm not particularly precious over, like whether using it is an action or not, I see administering the elixir to a fallen hero as being broadly equivalent to passing the item to them and them taking it themselves, which under my rules the "passing" part IS an action so this would be too, for consistency, however if under your rule set "passing" is free then this would be too. Equally whether it restores the fallen hero to 1BP or full BPs, it works either way so I'm not going to die in a ditch over that one, but some of the other issues I think are more pressing.

(1) SAME QUEST ONLY - I agree with the previous poster, for me, the intention is that it is used in-quest to bring back the fallen hero and not in later quests when that hero will have already been replaced, so a player attempting to use this item to resurrect a hero killed in a previous dungeon would get a NO

(2) USE AS A DEATH SAVE - All versions of the card clearly state that it's use is on a DEAD hero not a living or dying one so again, a player attempting that one would get a NO. And (1) and (2) combined means it would be of no use during a solo quest

(3) CORPSE - This is one of the open questions for me, can you just use it at any point, in the Quest that a hero died, as Kurgan suggests, and they magically appear next to you (drop from the top of the screen perhaps) or does it have to be used on the corpse. The corpse option feels more realistic (although realism isn't a big concern for me) and also more consistent with other aspects of the game, like needing to be adjacent to a hero to give an item. The additional "work" involved in marking the square of a fallen hero is minimal and is probably good practice anyway for the purposes of their possessions being recovered by heroes or monsters.

After a nice discussion with HispaZargon and keeping in mind the "replacement hero with new name comes in the next quest" in NA rules as written (and that death saves are a thing) I think the most plausible "intention" for the Elixir of Life originally was to allow you to instantly return the dead hero to the side of the one using the Elixir if said hero died within the same quest (or within the same multi-part quest).

This interpretation eliminates concerns about "carrying the body." They wouldn't reappear with any gear since that gear is "dropped" in the place where they died, so you only have to worry about retrieving that stuff (if they died inside solid rock, then nobody can claim it).

Could you please share your concerns about "carrying the body" as I don't see that mentioned anywhere on the thread

If we went for the magically (re)appear option because it saving the hassle of having to move back to the corpse, but then having resurrected they have to move back to the corpse to retrieve the equipment then they might as well have gone back there to perform the resurrection anyway.

(4) NO CARDS - I think we are mostly agreed that the resurrected hero should return with NO CARDS* (although if they resurrect on the square that they died and their cards are still in that square then obviously they would pick them back up automatically) and any cards they had are removed from the game if the monsters bagged them or remain with the other heroes if they bagged them and can be returned, or not, under normal rules

(5) SPELLS AND SPELL BOOKS
Trickier one

a) If you take the lead from Legacy of the Orc Warlord that spells have a physical component then they should be treated in the same way as other cards, however there is nothing in any of the other text within HQ anywhere else that implies that spells need a physical component, and the Vancian logic behind HQs spells also suggests no physical components for in-game casting, so this is suspect.

b) If spells don't have a physical components then the resurrected spell caster would probably still have the same spells as when he died (or plausibly could have lost them, but a Wizard with no spells would weaken the Elixir further), but if you follow HQs Vancian magic through fully then if their Cards are lost then their spell book is lost, which has no impact on spell use in-quest but would prevent them from "loading" a fresh set of spells between games, rendering the Wizard forever useless.

This issue would be resolved by Cards being lost to monsters means the corpse is also lost and cannot be resurrected, the other option would just be to pretend that the spell books are not a thing in HQ (maybe spell "instructions" are memorised in the conventional way)

Either way that still leaves the challenge as to whether we should pile up the Spell Cards with the other cards and they can all be lost to monsters (and therefore the returning spellcaster has no more spells aka Legacy) or we assume that spells don't have a physical component so stay with the resurrected hero even if the physical stuff has been taken, in which case we need to have another look at Legacy rules as that would introduce a discrepancy.

I realize that if you just go by what the rules state, as the Elixir only exists in the NA edition as an artifact (in the EU rules, it behaves totally differently, as a one-off in the notes of the Dark Company from Advanced Quest/Master Edition) it is a bit vague. The only rules about its use are on the card itself, and more than one can be found throughout the run of the "official" quest books under the NA (or remake) rules.

You are correct that The Elixir of Life has an Artefact card in the NA edition and appears as Quest Notes in EA edition but I'm not sure that not having a physical card included in the expansion negates the text, the Star of the West doesn't have a physical card in either edition but the Emperor still pays out!

I am trying to discern the most likely interpretation that the designers intended, but admitting it is vague, and so I would propose something that retains that (as opposed to jettisoning it, as some would, because they just don't like it) based on the text we have, before adding homebrew tweaks and additions.

People have tried to come up with additional house rules, like saying that the Elixir user has to travel to the exact square where their comrade's "body fell" and that they can't use it under certain circumstances (like if the hero died by falling into a "bottomless" pit or was trapped "forever" inside solid rock**).

Assuming that we are not just jettisoning the SE text we have "The revived character can be placed anywhere in the room".

This text doesn't make it clear that the room in which the hero died and the room in which the Elixir is used are one and the same room, but if you choose to interpret that as meaning that they could be different rooms, then you have a further issue, in which of the two rooms is the revived character placed?

The text we have doesn't state that either, so whichever way you look at it, you have to make an assumption and I certainly wouldn't dismiss the "room in which hero died = room in which elixir must be used" logic as "a house rule", it is in fact the cleaner interpretation, one assumption - same room - rather than two assumptions - (i) the rooms are different AND (ii) the one the text refers to is the one in which the Elixir is used and not the one in which the hero died).

That said, it's vague enough that Zargon can decide how it is used.

Indeed and this is one "Zargon" attempting to decide how it is used.

[The Admiral]

USE AS A DEATH SAVE - All versions of the card clearly state that it's use is on a DEAD hero not a living or dying one so again, a player attempting that one would get a NO.

As a counter it is interesting to note that both the new rules of how a Hero escapes death and the card use the word restore. In fact the wording "restore life to you" sounds like you weren't very alive. The rule goes on to say "any potion ...such as a healing potion" I.e. a healing potion is an examaple of a potion you could use. What other potions in the base game could you use that isn't a healing potion?

The rules also define a dead Hero "As a Hero, you die when your Body Points are reduced to 0." And you use a potion to escape death only when you have been reduced to 0.

[wallydubbs]

Agreed and it isn't my intention to over-complicate things, but when playing with the Elixir of Life, and indeed in general, I like to be able to anticipate some of things that could arise in play, check for official guidance and make sure I understand it, and where that is missing float the gaps here so that we as a collective group of EWPs can determine ways to plug those gaps which are simple and don't have unintended consequences, thus minimising the chance of issues cropping up during play and having to plug gaps on the fly which is unlikely to be the best solution.

Some of the issues discussed I'm not particularly precious over, like whether using it is an action or not, I see administering the elixir to a fallen hero as being broadly equivalent to passing the item to them and them taking it themselves, which under my rules the "passing" part IS an action so this would be too, for consistency, however if under your rule set "passing" is free then this would be too. Equally whether it restores the fallen hero to 1BP or full BPs, it works either way so I'm not going to die in a ditch over that one, but some of the other issues I think are more pressing.

(1) SAME QUEST ONLY - I agree with the previous poster, for me, the intention is that it is used in-quest to bring back the fallen hero and not in later quests when that hero will have already been replaced, so a player attempting to use this item to resurrect a hero killed in a previous dungeon would get a NO

(2) USE AS A DEATH SAVE - All versions of the card clearly state that it's use is on a DEAD hero not a living or dying one so again, a player attempting that one would get a NO. And (1) and (2) combined means it would be of no use during a solo quest

(3) CORPSE - This is one of the open questions for me, can you just use it at any point, in the Quest that a hero died, as Kurgan suggests, and they magically appear next to you (drop from the top of the screen perhaps) or does it have to be used on the corpse. The corpse option feels more realistic (although realism isn't a big concern for me) and also more consistent with other aspects of the game, like needing to be adjacent to a hero to give an item. The additional "work" involved in marking the square of a fallen hero is minimal and is probably good practice anyway for the purposes of their possessions being recovered by heroes or monsters.

All Zargons/Morcars have different ways of playland altering the game with what is and isn't allowed. Some play with an expanded treasure deck; only allow 1 treasure search per room, create new spells, or even go to the extent to change the combat dice.
When it comes to the Elixir of Life I use it as a max healing potion with the added benefit of resurrecting a dead hero and believe the designers saw it this way too, like in the Solo quests for Mage of the Mirror, the Elixir of Life is a treasure find that's there to save him/her just in case.

However if a creative Zargon/Morcar wants to write this into a storyline, I think I would allow it. Suppose a hero died in Quest 8 The Fire Mage, A Race Against Time is simple enough for 3 heroes, just tweak the introduction a little and make it about finding the one artifact that would save their fallen comrade.
I'm ok with changing the story for the better by adding this type of element.

I recently saw the D&D movie, Honor Among Thieves, where finding such an item to bring back the Bard's dead wife. The group in that movie consists of a Bard, Female Barbarian, Wizard and Druid, which is actually a group you can sorta put together with the new heroes for Hero Quest.. just the majority of that grouping would wear armor. Being of a 1 time use the Bard's daughter didn't really know her mother so chose to use the artifact on the Female Barbarian as the heroing experience made them all a family.

Anyway, the Zargon player will have the overall choice of the matter. In the original version of Hero Quest with there only being 4 heroes, losing one would just bring in a makeshift version of the former with a new name. Now that we're stuck with extra characters that nobody really asked for, despite the impressive skills some of them possess, I can see this becoming an issue: "Remember the Wizard we lost in the first quest? The Bard isn't really working out for me, how about you go bring him back from the dead and restore the team to their former glory?" I can totally see a player saying this... But we also now have 10 other heroes to pick from. So with this new version if a character isn't working out for you, you have others you can choose from. But if you really want to bring back an old character I'd leave it to Zargon.

My current crew are in the midst of Keller's Keep, nobody died yet, so they still have the Elixir of Life kept away for a bloody day. I don't want to make things too hard on them, as Zargon it's my job to make the quest challenging, fun, but doable. So I'm not going to push them to use it, just waiting for the Wizard to draw a Wandering Monster who will get exceedingly lucky hits and a bad defense for them to use.

I've also been playlisting the new characters a bit and have just about made it through Mage of the Mirror. Starting from the beginning I've lost a Warlock, Elf, Wizard and Rogue, all due to these characters having poor defense (Elf died in the first quest). During that time the Elixir of Life had only been found 3 times: A Race Against Time, Eastern Passage and The Sovereign Sword Returns (There's also one in the Water Tower of Spirit Queen's Torment, but i played that with a completely different group altogether Barbarian, Bard, Rogue and Wizard.).
The Druid has been with the group from the start and has kept herself alive by either battling with a Crossbow or diagonal attack from a Longsword, not getting involved in direct combat. The Rogue had to be healed during Keller's Keep (his skills practically push him to get involved in close combat, which is risky and doesn't always pay off, as can be told because he died again before they found the one in the Eastern Passage. Time was of the essence to save the emperor so they didn't have the chance to go back and revive the Rogue. The new Female Dwarf had already joined the company. The Elixir of Life from Eastern Passage was used in the Frozen Horror to save the Dwarf. That quest pack was perilously boring that I cheapened the victory by using Genie to open the door to face the Frozen Horror, because I was out of potions and knew they couldn't survive if they went through Quest 10 to find the Crystal Key!

So far they've almost made it through Mage of the Mirror without using that 3rd Elixir.

[The Admiral]

Keller's Keep quest sounds fun. That takes me back to the 90's. Played through it solo, with a group of friends and with my brother. I'd love to revisit, but there is too much new stuff.

A Wizard searching for treasure? Noooo! He always goes last with us so that's a double WM attack.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

USE AS A DEATH SAVE - All versions of the card clearly state that it's use is on a DEAD hero not a living or dying one so again, a player attempting that one would get a NO.

As a counter it is interesting to note that both the new rules of how a Hero escapes death and the card use the word restore. In fact the wording "restore life to you" sounds like you weren't very alive. The rule goes on to say "any potion ...such as a healing potion" I.e. a healing potion is an example of a potion you could use. What other potions in the base game could you use that isn't a healing potion?

The rules also define a dead Hero "As a Hero, you die when your Body Points are reduced to 0." And you use a potion to escape death only when you have been reduced to 0.

As is often the case we are down to semantics and interpretations, 50 shades of grey!

I always saw the use of the word "restore" in HQ, particularly in EA editions in the context of restoring up to x BP meaning that it can't take you over your starting value (so in EA editions it doesn't need to state that explicitly like in NA)

If in common parlance I read that someone "narrowly escaped death" then my assumption is that they didn't die, as opposed to they died and got resurrected

There is a Potion of Restoration, I think it is called, NA KK Alchemists store for example

And I agreed you die when your Body Points are reduced to zero, but then a Potion (of Healing) can be used "at any time" so my interpretation (or at least the generous interpretation of my players!) is that you are reduced to zero BP and instantly take the potion to heal/restore as you are dying, narrowly escaping death. Remember that dying in a fictional context can take a while, as you need time to think of and deliver your dramatic last words, gasp, clutch heart, keel over, plenty of time to quaff a potion...

All Zargons/Morcars have different ways of playland altering the game with what is and isn't allowed. Some play with an expanded treasure deck; only allow 1 treasure search per room, create new spells, or even go to the extent to change the combat dice.
When it comes to the Elixir of Life I use it as a max healing potion with the added benefit of resurrecting a dead hero and believe the designers saw it this way too, like in the Solo quests for Mage of the Mirror, the Elixir of Life is a treasure find that's there to save him/her just in case.

It is a given that all EWPs have different ways of interpreting the rules and tweaking the game, and are the ultimate authority at their table, in the same way that different football referees may have to make decisions on the fly when unexpected things happen in play, or assessors marking exams, but they have a "Council of Referees/Assessors" and so on to review these things after the event, to discuss, agree and publish guidelines for future use to try and ensure as much as possible that rulings are fair, consistent and so on, one of the functions of this forum for me is exactly that a "Conference of EWPs"

So yes you can play it as you like at your own table but the OP started the topic with the intention of discerning the most likely interpretation that the designers intended based on the text we have, as the EA version states 1 BP I can't see that text justifying its use as a max healing potion, the NA version
states "administered to a DEAD hero" so again I don't think that supports using it on a living hero, even if the designer of Mage of the Mirror had a different, third interpretation!