How do you handle Fear vs Courage

[Bareheaded Warrior]

"Common Sense" - I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as sense that is common to all, the fact that this debate has been ongoing for several years kind of demonstrates that quite neatly

Even if magic and mundane physics are fundamentally different, that doesn't necessarily help if both are being applied to the same 'stat'.

I agree no solution is perfect, but I'm not aiming for perfection, we have a problem and I'm just trying to identify the better solution out of the possible options as per the original post and it's good news that we have several options as that is better than none! So, taking a step back, lets clarify the problem and the solution options and make sure that we all agree on what we are trying to solve and how

Problem: It isn't clear from the rules / card text how in a situation where both Fear and Courage are in play the two interact

(Chaos Spell) Fear - This spell causes any one hero to become so fearful that his attacks are reduced to one combat die. The spell can be broken by the hero on a future turn by rolling one red die for each of his mind points. If a 6 is rolled, the spell is broken.

(Hero Spell) Courage - This spell may be cast on any one hero, including yourself. The next time that hero attacks, he may roll two extra combat dice. The spell is broken the moment a hero can no longer "see" a monster.

Couple of examples to clarify

Example 1:

1. On Barbarian's turn: Barbarian wielding Battle Axe (4AD) boots open door to room revealing a few Skeletons and a Dread Sorcerer and decides to stay put
2. On Wizard's turn: Wizard casts Courage spell on Barbarian (4AD+2AD=6AD)
3. On Zargon's turn: Dread Sorcerer casts Fear spell on Barbarian
4. On Barbarian's turn: he attacks Skeleton, how many AD does he roll?

Example 2:

1. On Barbarian's turn: Barbarian wielding Battle Axe (4AD) boots open door to room revealing a few Skeletons and a Dread Sorcerer and decides to stay put
2. On Zargon's turn: Dread Sorcerer casts Fear spell on Barbarian
3. On Wizard's turn: Wizard casts Courage spell on Barbarian
4. On Barbarian's turn: he attacks Skeleton, how many AD does he roll?

Two possible solutions identified so far:

Solution A - some general rule of precedence logic is applied that means that the sequence in which the actions happen is used to determine the combined effect (possible involving differences based on temporary/permanent effects and/or magic/mundane effects) - I'll let supporters of this option better define this rule but I think it was KK that first stated it as follows:

A spell is cast and takes effect as per its wording, then another is cast and takes effect as per its wording.

That is to say that it is the order in which they were cast that matters.

In example 1: that would result in the Barbarian rolling 1 AD
In example 2: that would result in the Barbarian rolling 3 AD

Solution B - modify the Fear spell card so that it reads "his weapon-based attack dice are reduced to one" instead of current "his attacks are reduced to one combat die"

That is to say that Fear reduces your number of combat dice rolled in attack due to your weapon to 1 but Courage gives you a +2 on top of your weapon attack strength (so the above suggested card text modification clarifies that)

The sequence doesn't matter so the outcome of both examples would be the same

In example 1 and 2: that would result in the Barbarian rolling 3 AD

Solution C - modify the Fear spell card so that it reads "his attacks are reduced by two combat dice" instead of current "his attacks are reduced to one combat die"

That is to say that the effects of Fear and Courage are opposites, Fear -2AD, Courage +2AD

The sequence doesn't matter so the outcome of both examples would be the same

In example 1 and 2: that would result in the Barbarian rolling 4 AD

Once we are happy with the above then we can see how the three options play out in other examples than the ones already provided that might be relevant

[Markus Darwath]

Agreed, but would add...

Solution D - conflicting spell/potion effects simultaneously applied to the same hero/monster simply cancel each other out and both cease to be in play.

I, personally, lean toward either A or D simply because B and C require modifying the card and I don't possess the resources to readily produce replacement cards of comparable quality to the commercial game components. (yes, I can be a touch perfectionistic about some things. In the original releases the fact that certain expansions provided odd-sized artifact cards and thin-stock tiles was somewhat irritating.)
In actual play, and again this is just my personal gaming style, I would tend to look for group consensus whether to go with solution A or D. I view them both as equally viable, but one is clearly more complex, thus I would defer to my players' tolerance for tracking conditions.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Amusingly enough I would probably go for solution C.

Whilst I agree with you about modifying cards, I get around that by having the latest version of the card text printed off in hardcopy, in much the same way that some editions have Equipment Cards and some have The Armoury, I have Spell Cards and the Grimoire, Treasure Cards and the Treasury. The cards are used for the purposes of physically tracking which spells you have remaining or drawing a Treasure Card, but the actual reference text used is the one in the corresponding A4 hard copy. It isn't perfect, but my players are experienced so generally know the card text without checking (apart from the odd occasion) and one day I would like to print out a whole load of new cards but I can't see that happening any time soon.

The reason that I prefer making 'local' modification, for example changing the text on the Fear spell, is that the alternative, creating a new 'global' rule and including in the rulebook has a much wider impact that makes unintentional consequences that take a lot of effort to fix (as each 'global' fix itself has the potential to have more knock-on effects)

As an example "A spell is cast and takes effect as per its wording, then another is cast and takes effect as per its wording" may sound fine in the context of this discussion but as soon as you add that to a rulebook, you have to consider every situation in which a spell is cast, and then another spell is cast on top of it, and how that actually plays out in practice. Then you need to consider that a spell cast on top of a potion (or the other way around) is a very similar circumstance, do you then need to consider all those combinations and expand your rule to cover those, what about potions on potions and so on.

Personally I always try and keep it 'local', the only exceptions that I have made to that for HeroQuest is for a handful of areas like "search" when there are so many problems to be fix by modifications it actually becomes easier to do a complete rewrite of the whole chunk, and manage that, than it does to make a dozen tweaks.

I guess we'll have to wait for others to wade in and see how it pans out.

That said on your solution D you mention 'simultaneously applied' which I don't think is what we are talking about here (otherwise the order in which they were applied rule doesn't make a lot of sense), you mention spell/potion that doesn't match the other solution options as presented - they refer to spells only, and does a +1AD spell/potion and a -2AD spell/potion just cancel out?

[Markus Darwath]

That said on your solution D you mention 'simultaneously applied' which I don't think is what we are talking about here (otherwise the order in which they were applied rule doesn't make a lot of sense), you mention spell/potion that doesn't match the other solution options as presented - they refer to spells only, and does a +1AD spell/potion and a -2AD spell/potion just cancel out?

Wrong choice of words on my part. Should have maybe been "simultaneously affecting"? And yes, I would tend to lump spells and potions together as magical effects. Also yes, the +xAD and -xAD effects would simply neutralize each other rather than working the math. Likewise a magic effect that increases a hero's speed would simply cancel out with a magic effect that slows them, etc. Again, the purpose behind this potential solution is speed and simplicity. Hero is amped up with Courage, Zargon decides to knock it down with Fear (or vice-versa); the hero is simply returned to normal AD. This not only alleviates having to figure out how the numbers interact, but eliminates the need to continue rolling spell breaks and keeping track of the presence of monsters in line of sight. In most cases, neither effect was likely to last more than 2 or 3 rounds anyway.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

eliminates the need to continue rolling spell breaks and keeping track of the presence of monsters in line of sight. In most cases, neither effect was likely to last more than 2 or 3 rounds anyway.

True but it only does this in instances where Fear and Courage are "combined" which is likely to be a quite small sub-set of the occasions where Fear or Courage are used and it doesn't help at all for any other spell with a 'lingering effect' like Sleep and others.

For me, to 'fix' Courage in that respect - there is a topic on this elsewhere - so I'll just touch on it here briefly - I have just amended the text to make it clear that you check once, at the start of each turn, for someone under the effects of Courage, whether they can see any Monsters, if so then the effects continue for a turn, if not they end.

In terms of 'continuing to roll spell breaks' I have retro-fitted a spell mechanism introduced in one of the later expansion packs, AToH or Frozen Horror (can't remember which pack or spell(s) off the top of my head), where you use the combat mechanism for mind combat, so the 'roll a number of combat dice equal to your Mind Points in attack, defender rolls number of combat dice equal to their mind points' and the number of hits (excess skulls, not blocked by shields) gives you the number of turns that the spell effect lingers on for. This removes the need for those awkward spell breaks. Also these lingering effects end instantly on the death of the spell caster.

[Daedalus]

Problem: It isn't clear from the rules / card text how in a situation where both Fear and Courage are in play the two interact

(Chaos Spell) Fear - This spell causes any one hero to become so fearful that his attacks are reduced to one combat die. The spell can be broken by the hero on a future turn by rolling one red die for each of his mind points. If a 6 is rolled, the spell is broken.

(Hero Spell) Courage - This spell may be cast on any one hero, including yourself. The next time that hero attacks, he may roll two extra combat dice. The spell is broken the moment a hero can no longer "see" a monster.

Couple of examples to clarify

Example 1:

1. On Barbarian's turn: Barbarian wielding Battle Axe (4AD) boots open door to room revealing a few Skeletons and a Dread Sorcerer and decides to stay put
2. On Wizard's turn: Wizard casts Courage spell on Barbarian (4AD+2AD=6AD)
3. On Zargon's turn: Dread Sorcerer casts Fear spell on Barbarian
4. On Barbarian's turn: he attacks Skeleton, how many AD does he roll?

Example 2:

1. On Barbarian's turn: Barbarian wielding Battle Axe (4AD) boots open door to room revealing a few Skeletons and a Dread Sorcerer and decides to stay put
2. On Zargon's turn: Dread Sorcerer casts Fear spell on Barbarian
3. On Wizard's turn: Wizard casts Courage spell on Barbarian
4. On Barbarian's turn: he attacks Skeleton, how many AD does he roll?

I've settled on another solution not yet presented here (but earlier in this topic, if I recall correctly):

Solution E - Apply spell effects together as determined by the attack dice section of the Character Card explanation:

Attack Dice
They reflect the fighting power of the Hero's weapon. Durning the Quest, the Hero's attack strength will continually be changed by events (spells, combat, etc.).

The attack strength of the Hero's weapon is changed by the spell event Courage, but also the Fear spell which reduces that modified attack to 1. When both durations overlap, first the attack strength is found by adding the Courage bonus, then that attack value is reduced to 1 as directed by the Fear spell. In terms of BODMAS mentioned earlier, the Fear spell effect can be thought of as an operation that takes an expression to the power of zero. In the case of the Barbarian, (4+2)⁰=1. Even if a potion of strength was drunk after the casting of Fear, it is still added into the attack strength expression understood from p.7. Therefore, it will remain subject to the absolute Fear value of 1 until that spell is broken. If the Hero wants to avoid wasting the potion, he should wait to drink it until Fear no longer grips him, or drink it and then delay his next attack until the spell is broken.

Order of casting does not affect the outcome since the sequence of applying effects is constant.

In both examples 1 and 2, that results in the Barbarian rolling 1 AD. Fear grabs you deep until you can face it.

[wallydubbs]

If Fear is cast first and takes hold Barbarian's attack is reduced to 1, adding Courage on top of that raises his attack to 3. If Courage is still active by the time Barbarian breaks Fear his attack booms up to 6.

If Courage is cast first Barbarian has 6 attack dice, but when Fear covers him it drops back down to 1. The Courage spell could still be active residually, so long as there are monsters in line of sight when Fear breaks, Courage could still be active.

[Daedalus]

. . . I'm fine with the effects of Courage and Fear acting upon one another without canceling eachother out. There is no footnote, unlike WoM. So I guess this is something the Evil Wizard player would need to decide for himself.

Does the hero still have Courage if he overcomes Fear? If so, then does the hero still have Courage if he is under the "Command" spell?

My take is similar in that both spells take their effect, including their durations. So if a Hero manages to keep a monster in sight, the Courage effect should exceed the end of a Fear spell effect that has been broken.

Command is an interesting case. I'd say it would break a Courage spell effect since once the Hero is controlled by Zargon to move and attack as a monster, he no longer sees other monsters as targets of his attacks. This breaks the monster-in-line-of-sight requirement, ending the spell.

While it could be reasoned that the other Heroes are the new targets of the spell, I wouldn't say so; unlike Ball of Flame, Courage lacks a Chaos spell counterpart and thus only functions against monsters. This holds water in the NA Game System that includes Command, but less so if the Chaos spell is imported into the EU Game System. There, Balur the Fire Mage may cast Courage on monsters or himself to affect their attacks against Heroes. Because of this instance, Morcar has more leeway to extend Courage or not while under Command.

[wallydubbs]

Daedalus, I think you've wrongly attributed a quote to me there. I don't acutely remember making such statement...

[Daedalus]

That's probably because you made it back in 2019. Check here for the full post. Perhaps my partial quote is a bit misleading since you had more to say on the matter. Sorry if I misrepresented your position. I pulled it mainly because I liked the Command question. Spotlighting new rules issues is what attracted me to the Inn way back when.