Legacy of Sorasil quest pack?

[HispaZargon]

Well... please, correct me if I am wrong but I I think nobody made before any detailed flow map of the videogame's levels, so I have designed this sketch in order to identify the intinerary followed by the heroes and the different options they had, which I consider really interesting to be also included in the questpack:

Legacy_of_Sorasil_Map_Quests_Flow_by_HispaZargon.jpg

[therealshrek]

This definitely should be included

[Anderas]

Hispanozargon,
I added your quest map and quest description of Level 1 to our co-working space for level 1so that it does not get completely ignored and stays in the collective memory.

You started two discussions in your thread that are also being conducted elsewhere, for example we talk about the monsters here, too.

I've seen your posting earlier but not read it because it was so long. I had to wait 3 days until I finally found a time gap large enough so that I could take the time and read all the text. That's feedback. I know it is difficult to write shorter on a long topic, I know perfectly well. But I still did not read your postings above and below the quest map posting, just because there is no time (Wife and daughter rolling out of their beds this very moment - hobby time is over)

I also added your "Heroquest II" map to the space here, but please note that we are not working on Heroquest II but instead we are working on an expansion for Heroquest. I took the freedom and kept the "Legacy of Sorasil" and removed the rest. The problem about the big version numbers is that you loose virtually all existing players in the process and have to build up a new stock of players. I have seen several spin offs from the original game coming to life in this forum over the years, most of them are more or less forgotten one year after.

If you want to put that point back into discussion, please feel free to join our messenger group so that we can discuss a little bit more in life and less with time lag. I couldn't add your email address there, I tried. You'd be very welcome.

[therealshrek]

That's another interesting approach, of course, but it sounds as it would be another board game, with so different mechanics than the classic HeroQuest. I guess the hard challenge here is having everything around Legacy of Sorasil's videogame available to be played just using classic rules's mechanics with some new additions as required as official questpacks do. That's what I would like to see solved one day... If I would need to design or accept using too many new basic mechanics to play it, or randomly generated dungeons and things like that... I would probably play other game.

So a double sized expansions sort of, that works too. As far as mechanics go, nothing goes away. This would simply add the random dungeon generation to the game, while simultaneously adding random generation on the main board. This way the maps for Sorasil could be 100% true. It also allows for Solo play on the table top without the App for those who do not have access to it, or dont like it.

[Anderas]

I took it upon me to count each and every monster based on Travis' pre-work and the Quest Maps.

Normally, unique Bosses don't have a special model but instead they get quest notes.

So with this single phrase I kicked out: Golem Boss, Snake Thing Hydra Boss, Vampire, Illithid Octopus Head, Lizard Man Boss, Skaven Boss Hornson Vilebreath, Skaven Boss Gruntas Foul, Dark Elf Boss Venthrax, and the Dark Elf Miniboss. All of them would be mentioned in any normal HQ Quest in the Quest Note, with a profile, and that's it. Real Fans paint up a model for them, the rest just points a finger and says "This is the boss".
Now there is not so much left over!


Count results are here


Skeletons and Zombies are aplenty, if we change nothing, a HQ player would need at least the ROTWL expansion for those two.
Mummies are base game compatible.
If we use Fimirs with Spells acting as Beholders (with three or six spell cards to be made) then the beholderfimirs are also base game compatible. And we have one new model less, which is a success.

The Elf Quest Pack is in no way sufficient to give us all the Elf models needed. There are 2 Warriors, 2 Archers, 1 Archmage and 1 female Elf in the pack. But we need: 5x Dark Elf Assasin, 7x Dark Elf, 4xDark Elf Warriors and, optionally, 1 Archmage. Even if we used Quest Notes to the max, there is no way that the EQP gives us all the models we need. Basically these models are new; but on the plus side, there is dual-use for them in the EQP. If the Dark Elfs are converted to Dark Elf Warriors by Quest Note in the one quest where the Warrior makes his appearance, then we have the "Assasin" and the "Warrior" type plus a character. That's 2 new models.

Then there is the triplet Chaos Dwarves (5 needed), Rock eaters (4 needed) and Mire / Mud Men (4 needed)
Again, those are not available anywhere. However, all three have dual-use with the new Dwarf Quest Pack; the Chaos Dwarves even have a triple use with the Ye Olde Inn HQ25 Quest pack.

Those are the ones I would take. The count is at 5 new models here. That's about the same number you have in some other packs.

Then we add one sort of Skaven, of which we need 5 models, and again discount the Character.

That's 6 new models already.


Here is my red line.

---

Now about the rest.



We have 6 monsters without dual use: Ghost, Golem, Mini-Gargoyle, Lizardmen, Snake Thing and Snake Thing with Wings as new monsters. Those are the ones whose right to exist should at least be discussed!

Right at the bottom, there are those Snake Things. They appear in a single quest. That's a stupid amount of work for little effect. I say out with them!

Nearly the same for the Lizardmen, though they are not totally flat at the bottom of the list because they appear in 2 quests instead of one. Easily replaced by Fimirs if someone has Kellars Keep; or with Orcs. The Heroquest signature monster is not represented enough anyway. Also the Chaos Warrior has not yet been seen anywhere. I say out with the lizard men and let's discuss a replacement from the Base Game!

The Mini Gargoyle is used in masses, oh so many of them! It's a cool model perhaps, it appears in 3 quests. I challenge you all - Is it possible to replace that guy with Chaos Dwarves? Convince me otherwise. We'd have one model less to add and we could more-use another model that we all want to add.

The Ghost, too, used in 4 quests, appears in masses - we need 5 of them - For me, this guy is borderline to "keep" or "out". They're logical as new model in the undead line, so that's the argument for "keep". They are, on the other hand, one model more again, raising the count to 7 new models, which hurts badly. Every new model reduces the number of people who take upon themselves all the work to search, purchase and paint the models.

Then there is the Golem. Used in 3 Quests, it doesn't appear very often. Can't we replace it by Mud/Mire Men? I don't really see why not. If they are supposed to be strong, we can replace them with Chaos Warriors instead.

So. What do you think?

[therealshrek]

Well, considering this is in all honesty a double sized expansion at its smallest. Then twice as many new minis is not such a bad thing

[Anderas]

Well, considering this is in all honesty a double sized expansion at its smallest. Then twice as many new minis is not such a bad thing

Working towards a normal size here. Why do you think it is double sized? It's just 9 quests. That is less than in most expansions.

If we change the game system, we lose all HQ players and have to build up a new player base. For your idea with random dungeon generation, check out this card set I've made, maybe you have an idea how to make it better or different. We can discuss that point over there.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5887


And if we have EQP and DQP monsters already, some would say monster-wise it is already double sized right? And here I discounted the Skaven already. Oh! Skaven! I have to update my posting above. That makes it even worse, 7 new models without the Characters, that's already a lot of people we discourage to rebuild the content of this quest book.

It is not as if we pack it up and make it purchasable. The people will have to go on the mini-hunt themselves, so every added mini is an added entry barrier.

[HispaZargon]

Hispanozargon,
I added your quest map and quest description of Level 1 to our co-working space for level 1so that it does not get completely ignored and stays in the collective memory.

Hi Anderas, no problem, I will try to upload there my new additions. However, I think sharing our thoughts here is the right place if somebody else what to comment or give suggestions.

You started two discussions in your thread that are also being conducted elsewhere, for example we talk about the monsters here, too.

Ok, I will try to work there. One first comment I have seen: The elite skavens are missing there (the ones with shield).

I've seen your posting earlier but not read it because it was so long. I had to wait 3 days until I finally found a time gap large enough so that I could take the time and read all the text. That's feedback. I know it is difficult to write shorter on a long topic, I know perfectly well. But I still did not read your postings above and below the quest map posting, just because there is no time (Wife and daughter rolling out of their beds this very moment - hobby time is over)

Don't worry, of course!! This is not a job, it is just for fun, I think nobody here is required to be 7d/24h connected and sharing! Moreover, this questpack has been frozen for years, I think any hurry now has no sense if we want to make a good questpack...

I also added your "Heroquest II" map to the space here, but please note that we are not working on Heroquest II but instead we are working on an expansion for Heroquest. I took the freedom and kept the "Legacy of Sorasil" and removed the rest.

Yes, of course feel free to do with it what you want.

The problem about the big version numbers is that you loose virtually all existing players in the process and have to build up a new stock of players. I have seen several spin offs from the original game coming to life in this forum over the years, most of them are more or less forgotten one year after.

Well, from my side I have always considered its conversion as a questpack, so don't be afraid for it. If you read my previous posts you will sure understand that the last thing I would like to see on it is a new board game... I just wrote there "HeroQuest II" since the map was directly taken from the videogame. I think the great challenge is creating an enough faithful questpack which could be playable with the classic HeroQuest rules, but never making "a new HeroQuest". Of course some adittions will be required in order to cover different especific details but yes, always having in mind that players could want to play with their already created heroes. However, I think this questpack may be only for strong heroes, which could justify the use of new spells, an so on. Maybe this could be a disagreement point, I don't know... but at the moment I see it quite clear.

If you want to put that point back into discussion, please feel free to join our messenger group so that we can discuss a little bit more in life and less with time lag. I couldn't add your email address there, I tried. You'd be very welcome.

oh, my Goddess... Does anybody still use Messenger??? hahaha... well, honestly I don't know if I would be able to connect there so frequently, I prefer taking through the Inn, but, please, send me in a private the details for it and we will see how to do it. Edited: Ok, I see what you mean now... good.

[Thorastin]

Howdy. Couldn't seem to recover my old account Nephew of Mentor, but I guess that makes sense 9 years later. Going to take a second to catch up with the most recent discussion. I also have a real quick drawing for LVL 3, Island of Rin that I should be able to share with the group soon. It needs furniture and maybe some monster balancing. Anywho, I better get to reading.

[Thorastin]

Hmm, not going to quote , would be two pages of it, haha.
So I will just voice my thoughts. I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way.
"Legacy of Sorasil, IS Heroquest II" The video game was never an expansion of Heroquest, it was Heroquest taken to the next level.
More Monsters, More Spells, More Rewards, Heroes of higher power.....
If we are trying to remake it as intended, then it will not simply be an expansion.

It will be "Legacy of Sorasil, Heroquest II"
A full game system like the Main Box that can be played as a stand alone, or in combination with Heroquest.

This is where we go to the original (HQ2) Advanced Heroquest, and incorporate the Random Dungeon System (allowing for the video games Maps)
The random tables include rules for the standard Heroquest board, both as a stand alone dungeon and also as part of a random Dungeon.

AND all the Monsters could easily be incorporated, There could even be an independent Monster Guide with all new Monsters
as well as all Monsters from all expansions, and show the system for creating champions and bosses for the Monsters.
But miniature wise only include the new ones. And Double Doors would simply become one of the many new additions to the game.

And the XP system would explain the higher power, and ability to have more spells, because it only happens after it is earned.
Using this method, the new heroes could be given compatible stats with the old ones and not the other way around, maintaining the current characters
while making new ones available , because they too would have to earn their "greater power"

I am not so sure this was meant to be the next level in Heroquest. Given that this game came near the end of the HQ era and MB and GW were already at odds, and having played it through to the end I think this was meant to be MB trying to make it's own end to the HQ canon.

Here's evidence of this:
1. the game lacks almost any GW specific creatures (fimirs, most chaos creatures etc).
2. The game introduces very DND creatures (dark elves, beholders, ilithids etc).
3. The levels are introduced by someone acting just like Mentor...however, once you beat the game and have all the equipment he reequips himself with it and is revealed to be Sorasil. I think MB was trying to make this character Mentor from the start, but they were avoiding using the name.
4. I think MB was intending the bad guy, Venthrax, to literally be the bad guy to end all bad guys. When you beat the game they do a sort of conclusion that feels like it's meant to be final.
5. The golem looks similar to the giant from Dragon Strike. Even though HQ already has gargoyles, these ones look like Dragon Strike gargoyles.

I think they intentionally were merging the two properties. MB made this game to say "Hey, now you're done with HQ, didn't you like those beholders? You should try out DND."