Overview of the Old World

[Kurgan]

All of the official Hero Quest game releases were sold with Gamesworkshop created Citadel miniatures, so of course they put the logo on there. I'm curious a bit too about this "split," but not enough to do a research project on it, I leave that to y'all.

Edit: This thread isn't a debate/research database about IP law, so forget it.

I think it's not the same as saying "Based upon Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry" in every Star Trek spinoff product though.

The new remake would be the first official game product NOT to include anything specifically created by GW, even though I would think some of the artwork would be directly based on the artwork in the original game (the Les Edwards paintings on the cover were independent, commissioned works, not necessarily connected to anything in Warhammer, right?). I'm not an IP lawyer, but is this a case of the stuff lapsing and some other stuff not quite lapsing so needing to be "different enough not to be confused but pretty similar still" kind of thing?

A new Warhammer... hope it's good. Reminds me too that they're doing a LOTR prequel series set in the earlier age (Sauron: The College Years).

The canons of stuff changes. If we're going to take the EU ROTWL map as canon for HQ (rather than looking to some future WHF release to interpret it), I think it would be reasonable to include the date too. Yes, you can come up with a retcon (maybe the map was not from the time of the adventure), but that's a fan retcon... fanon, head-canon, etc. A fan attempt to harmonize different sources to make them fit better with one or the other, as opposed to verifiable authorial intent. Of course who cares about original authorial intent? If the owners of HQ don't care that much anymore (if they ever did), why should we? But that's my opinion.


If I were running a Star Wars RPG session as the GM I'd say "I know that according to Lucasfilm, then Rey Skywalker... but in these sessions we're going to assume that never happened. Don't like it, then you do it your way when it's your turn to GM." Problem solved!

"Canons" of franchises change, but you have to wonder what the point of a "canon" is and what purpose it serves in your game situation. To me its far more important as a writers bible for the creators of the content, otherwise its little more than a marketing gimmick. If your story only makes sense if you need to specify which other sources go with it and which don't, so be it, that's meant to be a an aide to the reader/viewer/player so they don't get confused ("why don't they mention X/I thought that Y and not Z happened here"). That's why its humorous to see those youtube videos showing Star Wars original trilogy characters mentioning stuff that happened in the prequels or sequels, because it's a change that wasn't known at the time! Other fans don't find this funny and write long articles explaining how it can all be made to fit together in harmony so as to accommodate later sources. And some of them get hired by Lucasfilm and those opinions themselves become "canon!"

The value in a thread like this is "if I am trying to harmonize this Warhammer info with my HQ info, what are some good ways to do it?" that's helpful. Gamesworkshop and Hasbro aren't doing this for us, this is a fan effort.

But yeah, every time there's a new(er) Old World, that means another discussion will happen, obviously.

[Cael Darkhollow]

What do you guys make of the idea that Rogar and Sigmar must have been the same person, just going by a different name?

Rogar of HeroQuest as Sigmar of Warhammer,
is problematic because according to the texts where Rogar is mentioned the Empire already exists and an Emperor is clearly identified (well clearly implied) as a separate person.
Now we know that Sigmar founded the Empire so was the first emperor, so having an Emperor or the Empire already established in the narrative makes it impossible for Rogar to also be the Emperor as Sigmar when he is introduced after Morcar's legions have pushed back the Emperors warriors.
That would be an irreconcilable contradiction.
If there were a separate Emperor after his reign but during his life time he would most certainly be remembered and recognized upon his return.

(my bold emphasis text to illustrate)
"Heed well the words of Mentor, Guardian of Loretome, and I will tell you of times past, of darker days when the Empire was saved against all hope. For I fear darkness is about to return...

The fell legions of Morcar, Lord of Chaos, had swept all before them. At the sight of the Black Banner and the massed Hordes of Chaos, even the bravest warriors of the Emperor had turned tail and fled, the land was laid waste and all men despaired.

But there came a mighty warrior Prince from the Borderlands- Rogar the Barbarian they called him. He bore a glittering diamond on his brow- the Star of the West- as worn by the ancient kings of legend. Hope returned and men flocked to his standard, leaving their hiding places in the hills and forests. Other great heroes joined him: Durgan the fearless Dwarven warrior from the World's Edge Mountains. Ladril the Elven fighter mage from distant Athelorn and Telor the Wizard whose sorcery was to save Rogar on many occasions.

For many years Rogar trained his army, being careful to avoid open battle with Morcar's general until all was ready; but ever harried their supply lines, wiping out countless Orcs and Goblins.

Then came the day for which Rogar had waited. His army had grown strong and was well practised. Camping in the high passes. Ladril saw the Black Hosts from afar and bade Durgin blow the call to arms on his mighty horn. Rogar's army poured down upon the enemy from two sides and the battle was joined. Many foul creature and good men perished that day. Yet as the light of day faded it was darkness that fled the field. But the victory was not absolute. Morcar and his general escaped beyond the Sea of Claws, and even now they plot their revenge. Soon their plots will be ready and the Empire will have need of a new Rogar. But where are the heroes to equal him? You have much to learn if you are to become as great as Rogar and his companions. I will help you all I can. The book I carry - Loretome- was written when time began. All that ever was and all that ever will be is recorded in its countless pages. Through Loretome I may guide you, but I may not intervene, lest a greater evil befall the World, and Chaos triumph forever."

Clearly Rogar came from the Borderlands after the Empire was established making Sigmar the first Emperor a different person.

The leader of a Warhammer army is called a general, so Rogar likely would have been a Hero or Champion level general for one of the Emperor's armies or perhaps was a mercenary general or independent commander who fought as allies with the Army of the Empire but wasn't under the Emperor's direct command.

As an interesting aside, the fact that Athelorn of the Warhammer Old World setting is mentioned in this HeroQuest text and is the homeland of the proto-HeroQuest elf hero Ladril who fought with Rogar (the proto-HeroQuest barbarian hero) is the final convincing piece of evidence that the writer(s) knew about the separate elf kingdom of Laurelorn distinct from the main wood elf kingdom of Athel Loren, and based the proto-HeroQuest elf hero from that forest, strongly implying the likelyhood that the Elf Quest Pack elven hero also would be from Laurelorn. The elf Ladril is from "distant Laurelorn" which as I interpret that sentence, is far from where Rogar hails from in the Borderlands. The nail in the coffin for Terrellia's elf Kingdom (queendom?) mentioned in The Mage of the Mirror quest book residing elsewhere such as the Borderlands, if we are trying to align HQ and WH by the printed references available, in my opinion.

the North American text in the HeroQuest Instruction Booklet on page 4 is much the same, with suitable name swaps for Mentor to Zargon, so no reconning Rogar as the Emperor can be made there either.

Now I suppose you can even still make the argument that Rogar is Sigmar returned after he disappeared some 50 years after he established his Empire ending his rule, making him in his 70s or likely older upon his return, but that stretches credibility. Especially if he then trained an army for many years as Rogar before defeating Morcar's general.

Much later in Warhammer history Sigmar was speculated to have actually returned, reincarnated as the Hero Valten who saves the Empire from yet another Chaos incursion (Storm of Chaos event 2004 WH 6th edition.) The jury is still out on that one, but the speculation was in the game story texts themselves not just fan theory.

[iKarith]

The new remake would be the first official game product NOT to include anything specifically created by GW, even though I would think some of the artwork would be directly based on the artwork in the original game (the Les Edwards paintings on the cover were independent, commissioned works, not necessarily connected to anything in Warhammer, right?). I'm not an IP lawyer, but is this a case of the stuff lapsing and some other stuff not quite lapsing so needing to be "different enough not to be confused but pretty similar still" kind of thing?

I can only speculate about contract details—I'm probably about as versed in IP law as a layman can be. But I don't want to hijack this thread for that discussion if you'd like to have it.

[Pancho]

I don’t think we can be too literal when trying to pinpoint Heroquest into Old World history. I don’t think that Rogar is literally Sigmar, rather that the designers were using the Sigmar archetype when they created the idea of Rogar.

The simple answer as to why Rogar had an Elf, Dwarf & Wizard companion is because those are the four Heroes that were chosen for Heroquest. The HQ history was written to inspire the kids who would play as those four Heroes.

Truth be told we are inevitably trying to crowbar all this stuff into Warhammer history. The archetypes or vague analogues are easy to find because they were written by people using the same setting. But they wrote or slightly rewrote the background to fit the game that they were trying to promote.

[Davane]

I don’t think we can be too literal when trying to pinpoint Heroquest into Old World history. I don’t think that Rogar is literally Sigmar, rather that the designers were using the Sigmar archetype when they created the idea of Rogar.

The simple answer as to why Rogar had an Elf, Dwarf & Wizard companion is because those are the four Heroes that were chosen for Heroquest. The HQ history was written to inspire the kids who would play as those four Heroes.

Truth be told we are inevitably trying to crowbar all this stuff into Warhammer history. The archetypes or vague analogues are easy to find because they were written by people using the same setting. But they wrote or slightly rewrote the background to fit the game that they were trying to promote.

In the Warhammer World, the barbarians are typically either Norscan or from the Border Princes. The history of the Empire is that it was made from unified barbarian tribes, so there WERE definitely barbarians in the Old World. I am not sure what happened to those who didn't unify with Sigmar, but they were either conquered or dispossessed, pushed to the outskirts of the Empire, so are probably in the lowlands of the Worlds Edge Mountains. Given the traditions of the Empire and Kislev, it's entirely possible that some wildmen or barbarians remain, despite the civilisation of the Empire, in many of the rural settlements of the region.

The reason for the Barbarian, Elf, Dwarf, and Wizard is because they are all iconic tropes within a party. Being a kids board game in the 80's, there wouldn't be any priests in the game, because you didn't want to be seen as pushing a religion of any kind, especially a fictional one. This is why the premise of Chaos is that of Chaos United, rather than any specific Chaos God.

As for the choice between a Barbarian and a Warrior, the reason is quite simple - Shields. Shields tend to bear heraldry or coats of arms, but they didn't want to tie any specific heraldry to the game, because doing so would tie it even further into the heraldry of the Warhammer World. Both the Empire and Bretonnia, the biggest nations in the Old World, have long and complex heraldic traditions, so it would be almost impossible to have any sort of shield design which didn't either tie or distance HQ from Games Workshop and the Warhammer World. Add in the popularity of Conan the Barbarian (thanks to Arnie, natch) and it's clear why Barbarians are the iconic meat shields, not Fighters, Warriors, or Knights.

[Pancho]

I don’t think we can be too literal when trying to pinpoint Heroquest into Old World history. I don’t think that Rogar is literally Sigmar, rather that the designers were using the Sigmar archetype when they created the idea of Rogar.

The simple answer as to why Rogar had an Elf, Dwarf & Wizard companion is because those are the four Heroes that were chosen for Heroquest. The HQ history was written to inspire the kids who would play as those four Heroes.

Truth be told we are inevitably trying to crowbar all this stuff into Warhammer history. The archetypes or vague analogues are easy to find because they were written by people using the same setting. But they wrote or slightly rewrote the background to fit the game that they were trying to promote.

In the Warhammer World, the barbarians are typically either Norscan or from the Border Princes. The history of the Empire is that it was made from unified barbarian tribes, so there WERE definitely barbarians in the Old World. I am not sure what happened to those who didn't unify with Sigmar, but they were either conquered or dispossessed, pushed to the outskirts of the Empire, so are probably in the lowlands of the Worlds Edge Mountains. Given the traditions of the Empire and Kislev, it's entirely possible that some wildmen or barbarians remain, despite the civilisation of the Empire, in many of the rural settlements of the region.

The reason for the Barbarian, Elf, Dwarf, and Wizard is because they are all iconic tropes within a party. Being a kids board game in the 80's, there wouldn't be any priests in the game, because you didn't want to be seen as pushing a religion of any kind, especially a fictional one. This is why the premise of Chaos is that of Chaos United, rather than any specific Chaos God.

As for the choice between a Barbarian and a Warrior, the reason is quite simple - Shields. Shields tend to bear heraldry or coats of arms, but they didn't want to tie any specific heraldry to the game, because doing so would tie it even further into the heraldry of the Warhammer World. Both the Empire and Bretonnia, the biggest nations in the Old World, have long and complex heraldic traditions, so it would be almost impossible to have any sort of shield design which didn't either tie or distance HQ from Games Workshop and the Warhammer World. Add in the popularity of Conan the Barbarian (thanks to Arnie, natch) and it's clear why Barbarians are the iconic meat shields, not Fighters, Warriors, or Knights.

I guess all the humans in the Old World would have been classed as barbarians, according to the standards of the civilised Empire that came later. Sigmar was of the Unberogen tribe I think (I’m probably spelling that wrong), which eventually dominated due to Sigmar’s skill at arms, driving out the orcs and forging the Empire. Good point about them pushing out other Barbarian tribes that didn’t want to unify.
I’m not sure if the HQ text makes mention of where Rogar was actually from, i’ll have to dig out my instruction booklet and quest book later.

I agree and understand why those four particular Hero types were chosen for Heroquest. I just meant that once they had been chosen, the story writers then inserted those same four Hero classes into Rogar’s story to inspire the later Hero quartet (I.e. the four players). So we shouldn’t expect to find those same four Heroes leading the fight against Chaos in a particular event established in Warhammer history. Heroquest (and Battlemasters) is obviously firmly rooted in the Old World, but the quest designers were telling their own story.
Likewise just because Warhammer lore tells us that Sigmar was the first Emperor, and HQ states that Rogar existed alongside an Emperor of the Empire, this doesn’t necessarily rule out the idea (to me at least) that Sigmar and Rogar are basically the same archetype stemming from the same legend - we have to remember that the HQ writers were simplifying complex Warhammer lore and repackaging it as a board game for kids. They could have made the decision to have Rogar save the Empire from Morcar just to inform the players that the new Barbarian would now have to do the same thing. Even in our own world historians would simplify or rewrite the same story to fit their own agenda.

[Kurgan]

Or if you believe the details in the other thread... HeroQuest was meant to be some kind of D&D spinoff that was then rebuilt with Warhammer material, ending in a blending of the two (or a whole new product in a sense)...

I guess you could try to explain it by saying that the Four Heroes are in fact the original four reborn... not as zombies, I guess that makes it seem like the "good guys" are Necromancers, and having read the illustrated guide, that means you're evil too, so probably not?

I like the whole "once again you are called upon to fill the shoes of these great guys from the past," because that's really what the game is. We named our Barbarians after famous warriors from legend and fiction, our Dwarves, Elves and Wizards from pop culture (that, or we gave them goofy joke names or our own names). The best games are always those that helped us live our dreams in make-believe, or to imagine if we were in there controlling the title characters in the movie/book/comic/etc.

[Pancho]

Kurgan there is quite a lot to support the idea of Heroes being reborn in Warhammer. There was a huge Warhammer Fantasy campaign a number of years ago called the Storm of Chaos. It was the penultimate Chaos invasion of the Empire, before the final one in which the dark powers were finally victorious. Well, in that campaign there was new Hero named Valten. Valten was a simple farm boy or something but great personages in the Empire believed him to be Sigmar literally reborn. He had the same physical characteristics, and even bore a birthmark in the shape of the twin-tailed comet.
I’m not really up with my Age of Sigmar lore as I don’t care for it, but I believe the entire premise is that many of the Heroes and Super Villains have been reborn in a different dimension, or something.

[Cael Darkhollow]

Or if you believe the details in the other thread... HeroQuest was meant to be some kind of D&D spinoff that was then rebuilt with Warhammer material, ending in a blending of the two (or a whole new product in a sense)...

I guess you could try to explain it by saying that the Four Heroes are in fact the original four reborn... not as zombies, I guess that makes it seem like the "good guys" are Necromancers, and having read the illustrated guide, that means you're evil too, so probably not?

I like the whole "once again you are called upon to fill the shoes of these great guys from the past," because that's really what the game is. We named our Barbarians after famous warriors from legend and fiction, our Dwarves, Elves and Wizards from pop culture (that, or we gave them goofy joke names or our own names). The best games are always those that helped us live our dreams in make-believe, or to imagine if we were in there controlling the title characters in the movie/book/comic/etc.

HeroQuest is literally an attempt (suceeded) to turn D&D dungeon crawling into a boardgame. It had been done before as the TSR Dungeon boardgame which had cheap paper and card components. HeroQuest improved dramatically with 3-D plastic components and detailed figures.
TSR was slow to capitalize on a simplified version of D&D as a boardgame with included tabletop miniatures; D&D was the real deal where you should invest in minis, Boardgames were just seen as low effort cheap endeavors to maximize profits not production value, it wasn't until the late 80s early 90s where boardgames became elaborate hauls of plastic goodies with lots of bang for your buck production value wise.
It wasn't until HeroQuest became wildly successful that they saw the missed opportunity and belatedly released Dragonstrike which wasn't a very successful effort.

D&D brand dungeon crawling boardgames didn't become successful until many years later, they went right back to folding paper characters first after the Dragonstrike debacle before finally following the HQ lead again and released plastic figures in a dungeon crawl D&D boardgame years later.

The archetype adventuring Heroes of Elf, Warrior, Dwarf and Wizard stem directly from Tolkien's Fellowship of the Ring, add Howard's Conan the Barbarian as another warrior archtype and we have the basic fantasy trope characters of nearly every fantasy property, game and video game ever invented.
HQ was wise to use such recognizable and relatable tropes originally, a failing with the new incarnation that has already played out with backlash against orc bards and halfling warlocks.

[iKarith]

HeroQuest was successful, and in a lot of ways it's better than the newer D&D board games. What has Wrath of Ashardalon or any of the "modern" D&D game got over HeroQuest, really? They're more random. They're more complex. And they use conditionals on the monster cards to avoid having to have an EW make decisions. Spells basically work the way they do in HQ, as do other powers—and every hero has some powers which may or may not be reusable.

On the downside, you're playing characters that are pre-defined right down to their names. In fact, D&D board games don't use character sheets. At all. Everything is a card or chit, since there's no armory or similar between quests and the whole point of the game is to achieve the objective and make it out alive.

The different focus allowing for everything to be done with cards or chits makes the gameplay fast, but maybe at the cost of HeroQuest's charm. At least I think so.

TL;DR: The D&D games haven't really got much for the HQ player. Minis don't fit on the HQ board. Modular dungeon tiles seem nice at first, but I think there are other designs that are probably better for that. AHQ has modular tiles that are better suited (and would fit the D&D minis actually!) WHQ as well. And other games … Really, the problem is that there are limitations and compromises to HQ's board, even if I do have to admit that you can do a lot with it.

But I'm veering pretty far off course for this thread. I think my point is that HQ is in many ways superior to the thing that fill its position in D&D. Its future probably lies with D&D because of course Hasbro owns both, and they don't own the Warhammer world it was originally placed in.

As such, I don't know that Old World has much bearing on HQ. I suspect if it was ever a canon part of the Warhammer universe, both companies are retconning it out of existence.