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The Orc's Bane allows a Hero to attack twice with two combat dice if attacking an Orc. Some people, including myself allow a Hero to attack two different, but adjacent Orcs once each. The card mainly implies that a Hero may attack the same Orc twice with two combat dice each time. Now, official rules state that a Hero or Monster may only defend against one attack from the same Hero or Monster per turn. Meaning if a Hero attacks an Orc with the Orc's Bane, and if the Orc survives the first assault, that Orc may not defend against the second attack from the Orc's Bane. Now to my question:

If a Hero fails their first roll (does not roll any skulls resulting in a miss), is the Orc allowed to defend the second attack roll if a skull is scored? The Orc didn't need to roll defence for the first attack, so may the Orc save his defence for the second attack?

My answer is yes. What are your thoughts?

I would also say yes for two reasons:

1. It doesn't necessarily say "first" attack, just "one" attack, right? Although, I suppose it could be unanimously decided that "one" be switched with "first." whatever....
2. If the first attack is a miss to which there is no defending chance to begin with, how can that be justified as the monster's one and only chance to defend against said hero for that turn? Zargon or not, that's just robbery.

On a personal note, that's probably one of the few and/or only rules I defied in the game and always allowed for both attacks to be defended against as I've always thought it odd that a Hero would be unable to parry or block two consecutive strikes, but then, to each his own.

The way that I interpretted the Multiple Attacks rule from the BQP, et al., is that (in that case) the Hero could defend only ONE attack, not necessarily the first. Personally, I take this to mean the same for Heroes with Multiple Attacks as well.

I have found myself constantly updating "the rules" with the Officially release addenda material. Ergo, theMaster Instruction Booklet. It makes it easier to sort through everything.

I think that it makes the most sense that a battle hardened monster isn't going to woodenly stand there just because the Hero has a weapon in his hand (whether he is successfully using it or not). So, the rule should be applied in both directions:

Monster with Multiple Attacks
1st Roll: Hero gets choice of defending or not - Maybe only one skull was rolled, let the Hero take the gamble or not.


Hero with Multiple Attacks
1st Roll: Zargon gets choice of defending or not - Probably won't matter anyway, most monsters have only one BP anyway!

I didn't notice this rule.
French booklet is similar but it seems logical the orc bane gives 2 consecutives attacks,the second is a exclusive bonus and may not need a defense so the monster has to be weaker face to this blade...

drathe wrote:The Orc's Bane allows a Hero to attack twice with two combat dice if attacking an Orc. Some people, including myself allow a Hero to attack two different, but adjacent Orcs once each. The card mainly implies that a Hero may attack the same Orc twice with two combat dice each time. Now, official rules state that a Hero or Monster may only defend against one attack from the same Hero or Monster per turn. Meaning if a Hero attacks an Orc with the Orc's Bane, and if the Orc survives the first assault, that Orc may not defend against the second attack from the Orc's Bane. Now to my question:

If a Hero fails their first roll (does not roll any skulls resulting in a miss), is the Orc allowed to defend the second attack roll if a skull is scored? The Orc didn't need to roll defence for the first attack, so may the Orc save his defence for the second attack?

My answer is yes. What are your thoughts?

According to the North American version of the Instruction Booklet, p.14, under How A Hero Attacks:

If hit, the monster immediately defends by rolling its Defend Dice.

In the general case of one Hero getting one attack, a monster would defend once. Yet, there is no stated limit on the number of times a monster may defend, whatever the source. Rather, a monster defends each time it is hit, as implied by If hit and immediately defends. In the case of an Orc defending against Orc's Bane (an exception to the general rule), each of the two hits would trigger rolling defend dice.
The Hero can succeed or fail with the first hit. As long as the Orc isn't reduced to zero Body Points, the Orc may defend a second time against the Hero's second attack with Orc's Bane.

Heroes defend in the same manner, as described on p. 22, How A Monster Attacks:

If hit, the Hero immediately defends by rolling its Defend Dice.

In the general case of one monster getting one attack, a Hero would also defend once. Should a single monster somehow be allowed more than one attack (an exception to the general rule), then a Hero would get to immediately defend each attack.

We always played it that the orc can defend both attacks. It's still giving the hero an advantage.

Also instead of thinking because orcs bane is so good against orcs that the orc only has time to defend once, think, the orc doesn't have time to make a return attack before he is attacked again.

I never liked orcs bane as a weapon, I'm not sure why, it isn't too bad.

I wish it included double attacks against Goblins, as well. The Spirit Blade is superior in all respects: 4 attack dice against 3 undead types (plus the Witch Lord), 3 attack dice against all other monsters. Both of these attacks may only be defended against once. That's why I allow Orc's Bane to be used against 2 Orcs adjacent to the Hero. That way, a lucky Hero can score two kills in one turn. Kinda special for the little blade.

Apologies for the ressurrection, but I found this thread while combing through my old posts. Since then, I discovered new information that I feel justifies another reply.

Daedalus wrote:

drathe wrote:The Orc's Bane allows a Hero to attack twice with two combat dice if attacking an Orc. Some people, including myself allow a Hero to attack two different, but adjacent Orcs once each. The card mainly implies that a Hero may attack the same Orc twice with two combat dice each time. Now, official rules state that a Hero or Monster may only defend against one attack from the same Hero or Monster per turn. Meaning if a Hero attacks an Orc with the Orc's Bane, and if the Orc survives the first assault, that Orc may not defend against the second attack from the Orc's Bane. Now to my question:

If a Hero fails their first roll (does not roll any skulls resulting in a miss), is the Orc allowed to defend the second attack roll if a skull is scored? The Orc didn't need to roll defence for the first attack, so may the Orc save his defence for the second attack?

My answer is yes. What are your thoughts?

According to the North American version of the Instruction Booklet, p.14, under How A Hero Attacks:

If hit, the monster immediately defends by rolling its Defend Dice.

In the general case of one Hero getting one attack, a monster would defend once. Yet, there is no stated limit on the number of times a monster may defend, whatever the source. Rather, a monster defends each time it is hit, as implied by If hit and immediately defends. In the case of an Orc defending against Orc's Bane (an exception to the general rule), each of the two hits would trigger rolling defend dice.
The Hero can succeed or fail with the first hit. As long as the Orc isn't reduced to zero Body Points, the Orc may defend a second time against the Hero's second attack with Orc's Bane.

Heroes defend in the same manner, as described on p. 22, How A Monster Attacks:

If hit, the Hero immediately defends by rolling its Defend Dice.

In the general case of one monster getting one attack, a Hero would also defend once. Should a single monster somehow be allowed more than one attack (an exception to the general rule), then a Hero would get to immediately defend each attack. Unless you are using the rule clarification from the Barbarian Quest Pack expansion. -edit

"... Now, official rules state..."
After checking out p. 5 of the Barbarian Quest Pack, 5. Rule Clarifications from the homepage buttons of this site (thanks, drathe), I see some backpedaling is in order. It states:

.Multiple Attacks: A Hero rolls Defend Dice once for each
. attacking monster. For example, a Hero attacked by a monster with
. multiple attacks (such as the Polar Warbear), however, gets only 1
. defend roll against that monster per turn, no matter how many of
. the monster's attacks are directed at the Hero.

Technically, the above clarification doesn't apply to a monster rolling defend dice against a Hero, as it isn't stated within. The Instruction Booklet breaks up How A Hero Defends from How A Monster Defends into different sections, so the superseding rule would only apply to Hero defends... technically.

That being said, I recognize most anybody will tell you the intent of the clarification also applies to monster defends as a game balance issue. The broadened concept of 1 defend against 1 attacker with multiple attacks is a sound one.
I'll come back to it later, but now on to your original question:

drathe wrote:If a Hero fails their first roll (does not roll any skulls resulting in a miss), is the Orc allowed to defend the second attack roll if a skull is scored? The Orc didn't need to roll defence for the first attack, so may the Orc save his defence for the second attack?

Yes, a failed attack (first or second) does not require a defend roll, as stated in p. 14 of the Instruction Booklet, under How A Hero Attacks:

. . . . . ... Failure to roll any skulls
results in a failed attack.

.<> Each skull rolled is considered a hit,
. . .resulting in 1 Body Point of damage
scored against the monster. If hit, the
monster immediately defends by rolling
its Defend Dice....

If the Hero's first attack fails with no skulls, the Orc isn't required to defend against it and so doesn't need to save the defend (a defend was never triggered). Therefore, should the Hero's second attack from Orc's Bane succeed with one or two skulls, then the Orc is allowed to immediately defend against it, as it is still eligible to defend against the Hero once. Your specific question as worded is answered with the Instruction Booklet alone. (I gather you already knew this or something like it, as indicated by your own answer above.)

Should the Orc need to defend against a successful, first hit from a Hero wielding Orc's Bane, the rule clarification from the BQP expansion comes into play (if Zargon is applying the general rule as 1 defend against 1 attacker). Then the Orc isn't allowed to defend against a second attack from Orc's Bane. This makes it a more potent weapon in line with the Spirit Blade, as a doomed Orc will have to deal with up to 4 hits (2 average). Only a named Orc with multiple Body Points is likely to stand against it for more than a round. For that reason, I too am adapting the BQP expansion rules clarification to include monster defends.

On another note, I think you are playing Orc's Bane correctly when allowing attacks to be split between two Orcs, but I disagree that they need to be adjacent, or that the Artifact Card mainly implies just attacking one Orc. It's true that the wording is a bit ambiguous:




You may attack twice if attacking an Orc certainly could be interpreted as applying to one Orc, yet an can also generally apply to more than one case in a turn: A Hero can attack and kill an Orc, and then with the second attack kill an Orc that is also adjacent to him. To understand my preference for including the latter, compare Orc's Bane to another Artifact Card:




Both Orc's Bane and Spirit Blade use four combat dice to attack the listed monster(s), so why are they worded differently? Spirit Blade doesn't allow a second attack, but achieves the four combat dice in a limited fashion, ie. one attack against only one undead monster. Orc's Bane states you may attack twice so that a second attack is allowed by Orc's Bane against a different Orc.

Another minor point is to allow the second attack of Orc's Bane to be used against any Orc adjacent to the Hero wielding it. The Orcs needn't be adjacent to each other, as neither the Artifact Card nor the Instruction Booklet require this. As a house rule, it works just fine, however.

Beernut does away with it entirely by using action points, and counters - if the defender rolls twice the shields needed to defend, he can make a counter attack. So in the case of getting ZERO skulls to hit, the defender rolling one shield alone can counter-attack the attacker.

As for a weapon like Orc's Bane...since we're using action points he would probably change it to something like one undefended autoskull - no matter what the roll is, one skull damage will get through on Orcs, maybe add an autoshield when defending vs Orcs, and able to spot them much further off, sometimes on the other side of a wall where you are. (We have ranged vision in our games - you're in a dungeon after all!)

I realize this has almost NO value in here as it isn't HQ rules...but maybe some principles are useful...

I think it's obvious that two different orcs can be attacked, since else they would have made it just a four-dice weapon.