Ye Olde Inn

In my group we change around the rules quite a bit... anything we don't like we often try an alternative; none of us are uber-competitive types and usually it's fun and the change either works or doesn't work, no big deal.

I am introducing them to AHQ soon and I've read several comments regarding some of the rules being undesirable and un-fun. As kids several of them played Heroquest and loved it, as a teen I played AHQ and loved it. They all play complex games now and I'm sure the added complexity of AHQ is not a problem, even WHQ would probably serve... but I want the experience to be as fun, and still not too challenging/awkward (rules wise), as possible.

Are there any 'house rules' you'd recommend using? ...I've seen mention of sentries, monsters opening doors, death zones, trap tokens and initiative as possibly being problematic. Are there easy improvements, in your opinions, that we could make that would both add to the fun and remove clunky, unnecessary rules?

Thanks!

Our HEROQUEST houserules: (haven't even learned the AHQ rules yet)

- Adjacent = all 8 surrounding squares. These are divided into orthogonal and diagonal squares.
- Ranged weapons may not be used on any adjacent targets.
- Ranged weapons may be fired over low furniture such as tables at the cost of one attack die.
- The first square behind any door may be searched for traps when standing in front of the door. The rest of the room is not searched in this manner. Counts as an action.
- Monsters cannot walk over sprung pit traps, but may attempt to jump them.
- Lots of added weapons in the Armoury.
- Some added cards: see my cards topics. We have 2 scroll and 2 potion cards in the treasure pile that let you draw a card from the scrolls and potions decks. You hold on to these scroll/potion cards until used. They may only be reshuffled into the pile after use.
- The equipment stack also hold the extra added weapons from the expanded Armoury.
- We have new Artifact cards too, EU style versions of all EU and NA artefact cards from all expansions. A few are slightly tweaked.
- More monsters for future quests
- Added all Chaos spells too. I'm mixing up the NA and EU quests, leaning more towards NA.

>Gargoyles get two attacks like the Polar Warbear.
>Fimir can cast Ball of Flame, Sleep, or Rust--chosen at random per creature.
>Dropped hero possessions are marked by the Equipment Tiles from the EQP, and can be regained in subsequent Quests.
>Heroes may only have one artifact in their possession active at a time.
>There is a Potion Deck, containing multiple of each type of potion, on Equipment Cards. All potions in the Treasure Deck have been replaced by "Random Potion" cards.
>Elf spells must be drawn at random.

Judging from the forum posted in, I'm assuming you want advice about Advanced Heroquest rules rather than Hero Quest. I haven't enough experience with that game, but Slev over at Old Scratch has been rewriting those rules. You should check them out. Here's a link to the latest version. You may also want to give the thread a read.

For HQ:
1. Count search for traps and secret doors as one action
2. Healing potions cannot revive if your Body falls to zero but when you die you don’t have to create a new character. You just lose the 1/3 of your gold, you miss the current quest, and you roll a dice for every potion you have (with skull it breaks). (The book says that you just lose the current quest, your friends gets your items, and you should rename your character for the next quests... This is not a loss at all... With the 1/3 of the gold it could be a real pain)
3. Only rooms can be searched for treasures and only once per group. Also if there is a chest you should get adjacent to it, to do the search.

I can’t remember any other house rule we use. Of course we use a lot of custom spells, skills, special rooms, custom monsters and we have finished all the original quests, so we play custom quests only.

For AHQ I suggest you some things from the more crucial to the less:
1. Play only quest with pre-made maps and some story. (Just grinding is not fun. Players want to play a story and not to just clear dungeons)
2. Don’t use the “dungeon counters” (tokens for traps, etc, and stop rolling the dice for gaining tokens each round). (The role of GM is not to throw tokens... It’s more important to create good quests, and place everything for a reason)
3. Remove the initiative (move the minis placed by GM, etc). (Very time consuming with no meaning)
4. Remove sentries (monsters who can open doors). (You can create your own bosses and special events if you like. You don’t have to follow rules for that)
5. Stop using components to cast spells. (it’s too complicated to know your spells and to make your own)
6. Use search for secret doors (and traps) like HQ. (Not only the one side of the wall)
7. Remove the "don't move" rule when you are shooting with bows or crossbows
8. Remove the death zones (it’s a restriction with no meaning)
9. Fumbles for range weapons is broken

If you want to change more?
10. Don’t use running, escape
11. Recover all the arrows after every battle and don’t roll for each. (Roll only for the magical arrows)

And if you want a combat to be like HQ, remove the critical/fumble and fate points. But these will affect many items that AHQ has, and to be honest critical and fate points are very good rules. Don’t remove them.

Thanks everyone, I have both games and I appreciate the tips for both, though yes I am more specifically concerned with AHQ. Patroclus, your post is exactly what I was looking for!

Patroclus wrote:1. Play only quest with pre-made maps and some story. (Just grinding is not fun. Players want to play a story and not to just clear dungeons)
2. Don’t use the “dungeon counters” (tokens for traps, etc, and stop rolling the dice for gaining tokens each round). (The role of GM is not to throw tokens... It’s more important to create good quests, and place everything for a reason)

I love these two modifications, I was already thinking I would prefer to have more pre-made areas than not.

Patroclus wrote:3. Remove the initiative (move the minis placed by GM, etc). (Very time consuming with no meaning)

By "initiative" are you referring to the part where we each roll for surprise, then monsters are placed and moved one free-square etc? That rule does seem clunky, do you think removing it would break some sort of game balance? How would you suggest monsters are placed instead? The same without the free move?

Patroclus wrote:4. Remove sentries (monsters who can open doors). (You can create your own bosses and special events if you like. You don’t have to follow rules for that)
5. Stop using components to cast spells. (it’s too complicated to know your spells and to make your own)

Again I love both of these ideas.

Patroclus wrote:6. Use search for secret doors (and traps) like HQ. (Not only the one side of the wall)
7. Remove the death zones (it’s a restriction with no meaning)
8. Fumbles for range weapons is broken

Could you elaborate #8? ...without the death zone how would combat or base-to-base etc work?

Patroclus wrote:If you want to change more?
9. Don’t use running, escape
10. Recover all the arrows after every battle and don’t roll for each. (Roll only for the magical arrows)

And if you want a combat to be like HQ, remove the critical/fumble and fate points. But these will affect many items that AHQ has, and to be honest critical and fate points are very good rules. Don’t remove them.

Hah I literally plan to try all of these mods; though coming more from the warhammer/wh40k side I think the AHQ combat system in general is fine for us and probably more familiar than the HQ system, I like the fumble/critical thing also.

Great help guys, thanks!

Lets see...

I used to have the Heroes move at a flat rate - 8 squares - but I learned that movement rolls make a great place-holder for initiative. That is, are the Heroes fast enough to take tactical position, close-in on the enemies, to run quickly from them, etc. So I kept movement rolls.

In my games, the Heroes are not defined by the published rules. A Warrior (Barbarian) could be any fighter-type: Knight, Amazon, Soldier, etc. An Expert (Dwarf) could be any type warrior with some skill: Thief, Ranger, etc. A Mage (Elf) is anyone who is mildly skilled with a sword, and as a spell-caster. And a Wizard is the same, but can go by any title typical with spell-casters: Witch, Enchanter/Enchantress, Sorcerer/Sorceress, etc. This allows players to have greater options with who they play and to enhance the role-playing aspects of the game, but beyond the option of the Expert to take other skills (at the cost of the Trap-Mastery skill - sorry, I have no list yet, but I have been working on it), this has no other bearing on the rules.

All coins and items are only worth 1/5 their normal value, so a Dagger only cost 5 coins instead of 25, but the lower costs are not an issue, as the Heroes can take the weapons and armor off dead enemies, as long as the items are not rotted or corrupted with evil. On top of that, monsters carry money on them in the form of a random "Coin Draw", with treasure cards also having a random number of coins (one coin draw, for very 5 coins noted on the published treasure card). Coin Draw tokens only give a few coins each, or some other items (gems, spell scrolls, etc.) or hazards (like a snake/spider bite) among them. As tempting as gathering-up all the monsters' weapons to sell at the Armory for half their value, the Heroes are greatly limited by the amount of stuff that they can carry. I also avoid calling the money "gold", as the majority of coins found are silver, with some mixed coinage (tin, copper, brass, bronze, etc.), along with a few valuable coins (gold, with the occasional platinum or aluminum). But this is all background fluff, with no real baring on the rules. With all of the money they can gather, I have been thinking of money-sinks in the form of high-end items, like a better keep to store goods, as well as training with in a special skill or ability boost (but as noted above, I'm still working on what skills to make, as well as there value).

With interchangeable weapons, many of my monsters have a wider range of strategy with heavies (who use 2-handed weapons), spearmen, archers, etc. I also use a wider range of monsters, with houserules to support them.

I allow the players to do actions that are outside of the published rules. Like with Dragon Strike, the Heroes can talk with monsters, preform Feats of Strength/Dexterity, etc. Although I have not covered feats in this forum before, the rules are quite simple: roll a few Combat Dice, with one (or more) Skull(s) counting as a success. With the amount of dice rolled for Might tests, Warrior = 3, Expert & Mage = 2, and 1. For Agility tests, Mage = 3, Warrior & Wizard = 2, and Expert = 1 (this are holdover stats form the use of the Elf and Dwarf types). Mental tests (for figuring out puzzle and magic traps) equals total Mind Points, minus 2 (minimum 1). Normally only one Skull is needed for success, but some tasks (like forcing open a locked iron-reinforced door) requires mare skulls, at the judgment of the EWP, or as noted in the Quest Book. The EWP is also at liberty to note whatever a task takes up an action, of are involuntary reactions, but they would mostly be actions.

In my games, a room may only be searched for treasure once - at all! But Heroes may also search furniture for traps and treasure (but not chairs, stools, blazers, or other small. simple items). In keeping with the PRG aspect, It is also not unusual for monsters and Heroes to throw furniture (chairs, stools, crates, barrels, etc.) around, or to overturn tables for cover. Throwing or braking furniture also voids a treasure search, so if the Heroes fight form doorways, the monsters would start throwing furniture at them, and use any table at hand for cover - voiding any treasure they might have. Beyond that, throwing chairs around is really fun to do! I'm crazy like that!

I also been working on random Event Cards, but I have swamped with other things to get things finalized anytime soon. But so far, the card art looks really nice!

Gunzhard wrote:By "initiative" are you referring to the part where we each roll for surprise, then monsters are placed and moved one free-square etc? That rule does seem clunky, do you think removing it would break some sort of game balance? How would you suggest monsters are placed instead? The same without the free move?

Yes you are right. I am talking about the surprise roll. Of course, it is a good bonus when the player wins and he can place the monsters everywhere he likes, but when we are talking for a final room with a wizard and many minions in front of him to block the way for the players so he could do his spells, if the player wins he will place the evil wizard in the first square of the door and even if the GM moves him one square it will be a dead meat.

If you still want to have a surprise phase, just place the monsters as map says and let the GM roll a dice for the free action (e.x if the GM rolls 11 or 12, you lose your turn and he gets the free action)

Gunzhard wrote:

Patroclus wrote:6. Use search for secret doors (and traps) like HQ. (Not only the one side of the wall)
7. Remove the death zones (it’s a restriction with no meaning)
8. Fumbles for range weapons is broken

Could you elaborate #8? ...without the death zone how would combat or base-to-base etc work?

About the fumbles for ranged combat it’s ridiculous to hit your friend, and it could be lethal while wounds are precious. Just say that his arrow hits the wall and breaks… It’s enough.

Death zones could be a very good limitation for the movement in AHQ. (For those who don’t know, in AHQ heroes moves about 8 squares in combat with no roll for movement, and if you step on an adjacent square of a monster you are forced to stay there, and only on the next round you can leave its death zone). But I don’t like this rule. In HQ the two dices for movement gives at average 6 points per round, so it’s almost the same. And if the GM makes a mistake and leaves an open path for his evil wizard, I want to go there and hit him… That’s all… Maybe others want to make it difficult to pass some monsters, so it’s up to you.

Malcadon wrote:I used to have the Heroes move at a flat rate - 8 squares - but I learned that movement rolls make a great place-holder for initiative. That is, are the Heroes fast enough to take tactical position, close-in on the enemies, to run quickly from them, etc. So I kept movement rolls.

Yes, I have played with movement rolls and it's another possible change, and I agree with all you said Malcadon. But I try to keep some rules or else it would be like you are playing HQ, which is not bad (that’s why I am playing HQ) but the point is if someone wants to play AHQ he should keep the most of the feeling of AHQ.

Thanks guys! ...great input so far. Patroclus that is pretty much just what I was looking for regarding Combat. So basically the GM _always_ places the monsters with no free moves, heroes going first - unless the GM rolls 11,12 in which case he gets free move and goes first... Slev at Old Scratch's has some similar ideas.

What about the timing of monster placement? Do you keep that the same, or do you wait until a hero has entered the room?

@ Malcadon - I am really interested in making the hero characters a little more interesting or at least, a little more balanced. It looks like you've gone completely off the script haha, very cool.

So then regarding Heroes, and the general consensus, what are the major downfalls of the original characters? If something simple could be changed to improve them what would that be?

Gunzhard wrote:... What about the timing of monster placement? Do you keep that the same, or do you wait until a hero has entered the room?

Only in Warhammer Quest the heroes enters empty rooms and when they finished their movements comes the monster’s placement. This leads to very random events (for games based on combat) and does not fit well to a story driven scenario (as HQ’s type of playing)

Gunzhard wrote:...If something simple could be changed to improve them what would that be?

in my opinion it is not necessary to make new heroes. One or two skills to each are enough (but not from the start). It is good to give them some skill tokens (3 are ok) for each skill so they can’t overuse them (if you want to avoid different classes, just put some artifacts in your quests). Don’t give them too much or else you’ll have some big troubles as GM. I am trying to have the maximum of four monsters in a room as the normal heavy encounter. If the players have more powers you should have more crowded rooms, and this could lead to chaotic battles which is a pain for the GM. Also it’s possible that your heroes will choose to fight your monsters from out of the room standing on the door (if they see many monsters in a room). But I am talking for HQ. For AHQ they choose to put more monsters, which is wrong (in my opinion), because the enemies in AHQ are harder and the game is more difficult (a skaven with a critical hit can slay a hero easily), but I understand that somehow they should burn some of the hero’s fate points.