Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

[Pancho]

Yeah just get a room you two

[cynthialee]

seriously.....it has been the same wall of text from both of you and neither makes any headway because there is 2 peas of the same pod butting heads

over nothing

There is no cannon, there is cannon .....

what ever it is moot because it is a board game

acting like it is a full on RPG for crud sake

[cornixt]

For the Orcs, a change from dumb evil minion to misunderstood noble hero is quite big, and is a bit of a concern if it's just dumped in as "these are orcs now" and then left, as we play the old HQ adventures in which the last thing you could say about an Orc was that it was "misunderstood." For all this talk of an ancient, magical, Orc kingdom - we've not seen any details, and this doesn't bode well for those of us invested in HQ.

Apart from the single Orc Bard, what else do we have on the new Orc background? We have female Orcs, but that seems to be it. Did I miss something? Nothing about orcs in general being noble or misunderstood.

If it is only that then it seems only slightly more strange than the barbarian, who in Warhammer lore would have been a Chaos Thug or Chaos Marauder. Noble hero barbarians weren't a feature in lore.

[Shadzar]

Is classic Hero Quest cancelled? Did it go away all of a sudden? Is it going to expire this Fall so it can no longer be played or collected? No? Good, I didn't think such a thing was possible.

This is moot to the discussion at hand.

Write your letters to Hasbro/Avalon with your concerns. That will do much more than complaining here, I promise (social media was made for controversies and complaining though). I'm not a moderator, I can't stop anybody of course, that's just my advice.

Well let's just delete this entire thread since this is neither the place to discuss things about HASBRO/Avalon Hill. Let's just delete the entire website since it isnt the IP owner, and then we can all just converse on the Avalon Hill website instead. I can be extremely hyperbolic too.

But then it got me to thinking... okay, so when you go and buy D&D these days

I dont. I am not interested in a bastardized game wearing a D&D skinsuit. WotC has never made D&D now am i interest in the fake D&D. This is an HQ website, so lets keep the D&D crap and modern ideologies out of it... which is the key to the HQ 2020 debacle.

But even if you paid an extra $50 for the "Mythic" tier, you were doing that to get the Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord expansions, right? Not just to get the Orc Bard and hope that Spirit Queen's Torment doesn'

I actually paid the extra $50 for the new content, because I wanted to see what the new quests would be like. These new quests will be a testament to Hasbro's commitment for HQ going forward, and will probably make or break HQ as a commercial franchise going forward. As it stands, we are fans of HQ, but the concerns and lack of information mean that we are unable to be Brand Advocates for Hasbro. Unfortunately, as it stands, fans being Brand Advocates is pretty much what will determine the commercial future of HQ at this point.

76 minis for $100+S&H, 133 minis for $150+S&H
133-76=57
Nearly double the minis for half the price of 2 sets. and you get variants. I paid $50 for the extra minis, not just KK or RotWL. The quests are meaning less, as anyone can make there own, and have for 30 years. Only the new players who have never experienced HQ will have any real use for them, as many people have them already and played through them and can even before it releases since they are all free on HASBRO "rules" website.
https://consumercare.hasbro.com/en-us/instructions?q=%2Fen-us%2Finstructions%2F&q=Hero+Quest&hsb_doc_search_button=SEARCH

To go back to the D&D, there is things called edition wars. This didnt exist much in HQ, because they were versions and not often did people get confused with NA/EU playing unless they physically moved from country to country to had to play a different country's version. D&D changes cause edition wars, those who will buy new product and those who dont. Those WotC has "thrown in the trash" as customers, and "those they want to try to get" as new customers.

HQ doesnt need that crap, mentality or attitude. HQ is a game system with a few examples of play in the quest book. Then from there people can do what they want, which is explained in the rules when the quests run out. The problem again is like "D" says there, are they willing to make HQ and understand it? Whatever they do with the core game will temper the attitudes and minds of EVERYONE on either side of the political ideology spectrum. This is uncalled for from HASBRO. They can produce the game, then make expansions for those who want them. Orc Bard mess seems to be a expansion that they jsut weren't willing to sell in retail stores. It doesnt add new minis other than what is needed in the base game (as far as we know), so should have been an add-on. Technically it is, but this coming with the base game will set a precedent. It wont just be a simple example of how to change the game, but an example of "YOU MUST CHANGE THE GAME". Such as recent D&D wheelchairs in Candlekeep Mysteries.

Well the book doesn't even include wheelchairs, but only "wheelchair access" in a dungeon... so it only half-assed commits to what it is doing without the wheelchair rules by WotC/HASBRO. I know HASBRPO has taken AH away from WotC, but it is the D&D crowd that WotC had that are making things like the orc bard quest, and they DO demand wheelchairs for all as a requirement, not an OPTION in D&D. With these designers, Joe Mangeneillo included, will this be the case for HeroQuest?

There is nothing in the base game that doesn't allow people to change it, but the "forced changes" from forced ideologies, and anyone that disagrees has "wrong think", is the problem form these agendas pushers. people want HQ, not agendas. HQ isnt the place to "discuss your feelings about ethics and morals". HQ is a place where you "kill the bad monsters and save the world". None of this "Orcs are black people" critical race theory crap, because ORCS ARENT REAL. ORCS ARE FICTIONAL MADE UP CHARACTERS FOR THE GAME. The are symbols of fear, not a real world organization or people.

If they are wanting to change it for new ideologies, then i say they are NOT committed to making HQ, but like modern D&D, it will be some random game wearing a HeroQuest skinsuit. I am not interested in that, i am interested in HeroQuest and new pieces with which to play it. The changes to the core game will revert back to edition wars in D&D because you will have no common language to discuss within the SAME country. I cant help EU players getting stuck with NA rules, but it will be similar for them as any change in HQ 1990s and HQ 2021 in NA. It will be an actual edition war between older players and new ones, unless they just leave the core game alone.

that lack of info is the problem, combined with recent events in D&D.

So it isnt about can old players keep playing the old rules, of course they can. Can new players play the old rules? of course they can even without owning the game since HASBRO has been providing them freely for years. The problem is how will the 2 games co-exist. will they be compatible across the NA market, or will they end up being competitive, and making the players have to fight over which edition to play. Again cant do anything for EU and other countries, because that is something HASBRO mucked up with this release being only NA modified rules. and those modifications we dont know about. "Orcs are misunderstood in the core game to support the bonus Orc Bard 'hero'." that could shake the foundations of the core game.

Apart from the single Orc Bard, what else do we have on the new Orc background?

Silence. That is the problem. People are expressing their fears about the changes since HASBRO will say NOTHING other than what is present on the campaign's page, and the information stopped being produced on the announcement page (https://heroquest.avalonhill.com/en-us) as the marketing agency (https://twitter.com/heroquest/status/1324756678735253508 Khoros Marketing https://khoros.com/) just quit providing any and Pulse never gives any info on products through it until they start arriving at people's doors and word of mouth is how people learn info on the products from HASLabs/Pulse.

People only have recent events for D&D to go on, since most of the "guest designers" are from the modern D&D crowd, and the producer/etc video seems like the 3 people answering the Q&A knew little and cared even less about HQ or what they were going to do to/with it.

[cornixt]

Well, as long as it is established that people are only freaking out over what they imagine might be in the game rather than actual facts.

I'm going to bet that nothing is mentioned at all in the new game, it'll just be as it was before; creatures in a dungeon that will kill you so you better kill them first. No worries over their intelligence or how their upbringing of poverty in a corrupt capitalist system led them to a life of crime. One of their species just happens to be a stand-up guy.

[j_dean80]

Well, as long as it is established that people are only freaking out over what they imagine might be in the game rather than actual facts.

I'm going to bet that nothing is mentioned at all in the new game, it'll just be as it was before; creatures in a dungeon that will kill you so you better kill them first. No worries over their intelligence or how their upbringing of poverty in a corrupt capitalist system led them to a life of crime. One of their species just happens to be a stand-up guy.

Perhaps he was found as a baby and raised by human traveling musicians.

[Shadzar]

Well, as long as it is established that people are only freaking out over what they imagine might be in the game rather than actual facts.

They are feelings BASED ON facts. Here is the Orc Bard creators comments, and where he is from.
https://clips.twitch.tv/ObliqueDifferentFlyPermaSmug

And here is the prevailing design concept for modern D&D.
https://twitter.com/mustangsart/status/1350573282760777729

Please. Hire me to help make Dungeons & Dragons a game that represents everyone.

[Davane]

For the Orcs, a change from dumb evil minion to misunderstood noble hero is quite big, and is a bit of a concern if it's just dumped in as "these are orcs now" and then left, as we play the old HQ adventures in which the last thing you could say about an Orc was that it was "misunderstood." For all this talk of an ancient, magical, Orc kingdom - we've not seen any details, and this doesn't bode well for those of us invested in HQ.

Apart from the single Orc Bard, what else do we have on the new Orc background? We have female Orcs, but that seems to be it. Did I miss something? Nothing about orcs in general being noble or misunderstood.

If it is only that then it seems only slightly more strange than the barbarian, who in Warhammer lore would have been a Chaos Thug or Chaos Marauder. Noble hero barbarians weren't a feature in lore.

In the Warhammer World, the Norscan Barbarians are not all united with Chaos. Proximity to the Chaos Wastes have tainted some of the tribes, but some are more like human Orcs or Ogres - semi-civilised beings that live largely to fight. They are based off the viking culture, and feature warriors, explorers, traders, and skalds.

in D&D, there is a current trend to try and present "monster" races like Orcs more as misunderstood creatures, than as monsters, because some people have taken to inferring that Orcs are a metaphor for ethnic minorities, such as African Americans. Apparently, some of the words used to describe Orcs are "inappropriate" because they have also been used to denigrate people of colour. I've ranted before on why Orcs don't NEED representation, and there's plenty of settings exploring many of the social issues we face today, particularly of the redefining "monsters" trope. Wizards of the Coast have specifically stated that they will be trying to be more sensitive in their portrayal of Orcs, Dark Elves, and other evil "monster" races because some people might confuse them with people of colour.

At the same time, we have the Orc Bard hero - who, despite looking like a sophisticated Orc, reads and plays like an Elven hero, and has only been defined as an Orc because it seems the Elf was already taken, by a girl. Because we have to have a female Hero in the set, and it has to be the Elf. Not a female Barbarian, or a female Wizard, but a female Elf for the core set. Why not make all the heroes female, if it's that important for diversity quotas? I can understand not making a female Dwarf, because is some settings, there are no female dwarves (male and female dwarves in these settings tend to look the same, including hair and beard styles), so there's your token male if you want one. There's no story behind the Orc Bard, armed with his rapier and lute, he's just - there.

Then you have one of the quest book designers talking about ancient kingdoms of magical civilised orcs, because he wants to be different, with no more storyline - we can hope that it'll be presented adequately, but in general, Orcs don't tend to go and copy Elves, even outside of the Warhammer World.

There's too much change that seems to be happening for all the wrong reasons, based on assumptions by people who spend most of their time fighting in their heads to assuage their own internalised guilt for actions in the past then get blamed for even though they had no involvement because they weren't even born, and even if they were alive, probably wouldn't have had the power or been listened to anyway even if they did join the fight for change.

The point is that for an Orc to become a foppish bard, there is going to be a story there, because that's not typical behaviour for an Orc. So, where's the story? I want to hear it, because if it's to do the character concept justice, it should be interesting. More interesting than "You are an Orc Bard," which is what the other Heroes essentially get. Is this Orc Bard a one off, or are there more somewhere? How does an Orc Bard, who is designed to inspire his fellow Heroes, feel about killing other Orcs and siding with the Heroes? Plus, if the Orc Bard wants to fight, why are they going for grace and agility, and not brute strength, like Orcs commonly do?

I'm not even going to get into the implications of an Orc Bard and the WAAAAGH - because by all rights, chances are if the Orc was a Warhammer Orc, then the moment they start to play, their freaking head would explode! It's already a stated risk for Orc Shamans and other greenskin magic users. It sounds stupid, and can dismiss this as more of the "but that's not Warhammer" argument, but the point is that the very point of playing an Orc, of being an Orc, of using Orcs in games is being dismissed because of reasons that have nothing to do with the setting or storyline, and everything to do with social politics in the real world. That means that without a convincing story to go with this, the Orc Bard is actually just an Elven Bard with a funny mask, which is a sign of poor design.

Plus, and here's the real kicker, Elf Bards ARE Warhammer canon already. In 1st edition WFRP, there was the Elf-only Minstrel career, because there are a mixture of various types of Elves in the Old World, including Sea Elves, the descendants of the High Elf colonies abandoned following the War of the Beard, upon which famous seaports like Marienburg, the freeport in the Wasteland and second best known pirate haven beyond Sartosa (an island just off the coast of Estalia), have been built. But no, because the Elf was already taken, and has to be a girl. So instead we get an Orc Bard, that's really an Elven Bard with an Orc facemask, because an ACTUAL Orc Hero might copy the Barbarian a bit too much.

Did you miss something? No, because there's been no information to miss. Hasbro aren't communicating with the fans, and all signs point to NuHQ being a simple cash grab to renew the IP, and provide a reason to take down sites like Ye Olde Inn for copyright infringement. Because Hasbro don't want HeroQuest, but don't want anybody else to have it either. Hasbro certainly don't appear to be wanting to make NuHQ a success at any rate, and chances are they are going to take the money and run, because sales have already been made.

[Pancho]

For the Orcs, a change from dumb evil minion to misunderstood noble hero is quite big, and is a bit of a concern if it's just dumped in as "these are orcs now" and then left, as we play the old HQ adventures in which the last thing you could say about an Orc was that it was "misunderstood." For all this talk of an ancient, magical, Orc kingdom - we've not seen any details, and this doesn't bode well for those of us invested in HQ.

Apart from the single Orc Bard, what else do we have on the new Orc background? We have female Orcs, but that seems to be it. Did I miss something? Nothing about orcs in general being noble or misunderstood.

If it is only that then it seems only slightly more strange than the barbarian, who in Warhammer lore would have been a Chaos Thug or Chaos Marauder. Noble hero barbarians weren't a feature in lore.

It is not just that though. There is also the introduction blurb from the designer of the Spirit Queen expansion, giving a pretty big clue in my opinion as to what they are going to do with orcs. To back that up we have also seen the art for the cover of that pack, replete with “handsome” orcs with long flowing locks.

I’m 70% sure that the whole premise of the pack will be dumb, but I’ll be happy to be proven wrong.

[Kurgan]

It should be noted that this is often referred to as the Rule 0 Fallacy - that is, deciding whether something (usually a game) is or isn't broken, because you can modify the game and/or choose to pick what we want from it. This fallacy exists because, whilst Rule 0 (The GM/Players can change the rules.) is generally accepted, using it in logical arguments about the rules undermines the whole point of having that discussion in the first place.

In general, any argument which involves the possibility of subject agency to change the situation is a logical fallacy, especially as it opens up things like the self-fulfilling prophecy fallacy (i.e. proving the argument that people kill people by raising the possibility of going out and killing someone.)

Ultimately, you are correct with your advice regarding choosing what we want for our HQ games, but it is not relevant in any form of objective discussion about HQ, especially if we are looking at what is officially released for the game.

This is an example of the strawman fallacy, the attacking of a distorted and weakened form of someone's argument in order to easily overturn it. I don't deny that it is better that a game is "good" rather than "stupid." The possibility of creating user content to override stupid "canon" decisions is rather a defensive action, a reparative response on the part of fans.

What are the alternatives? Being "forced" to play a game you think has been broken by the owners, or ending your participation in a particular fandom entirely? I recently purchased the Star Wars RPG. According to Lucasfilm and Disney, it's no longer canon. They're selling a totally different "Star Wars RPG" these days that is incompatible with this version. That didn't stop me from buying it and it doesn't stop me from playing it. In fact, they even released an anniversary box set of this very "non-canon" RPG! So it's not even like they're saying "go ahead and enjoy your dead game that you can only find on ebay!"

It's not all or nothing (which is another fallacy, if I recall correctly)... we can both criticize questionable "canon" decisions by Hasbro/Avalon Hill today, AND modify a game we perceive as "broken" to make it more palatable to our standards.

The objection to my position is "No! You must not purchase their product and then 'fix it yourself' because that encourages them to make bad content, since you've already purchased it and by doing this you're deflating any possible boycott by encouraging fans who dislike the new product to buy it anyway!"

But I don't advocate that. I say if you don't want it, don't buy it. If you disagree with it, let your voice be heard, message them on social media, send them an email, write a constructive letter. You can even "raise hell" on the internet about it, hoping to get others fired up towards those pursuits. As long as you're not going after people for saying "I can buy it and fix it" you're okay by me.

I'm confident they won't trash the old mythos, but I have no inside information on what's in the "new content." For all I know it will be perfectly terrible. The people who get it, will be upset. I feel more for them than for myself. I pledged Mythic tier not because I wanted the Orc Bard, but because I wanted to support the effort to get, what appeared to be a mostly game-play identical version of the game I loved back into the public eye again. I didn't ask Hasbro/AH to destroy the mythos, so if that happens, nobody can blame me.

I may be a weirdo. I've bought game pieces that I could see were visibly broken in the package, because I knew how easy it would be for me to fix it at home. On principle, I should have refused to buy it (it was already marked down), but that was my solution. I wouldn't fault someone for leaving it alone. Why should you have to expend the effort on something that should have been perfect at the point of sale?

I actually paid the extra $50 for the new content, because I wanted to see what the new quests would be like.

I was curious to see what Stephen Baker might contribute, but honestly I didn't even believe it would get to that tier. I just wanted a "complete" (such as it is) set that had KK & ROTWL in matching style. I didn't really care about the extra stuff, though having some nicer looking Zombie and Mummy sculpts was an added bonus. The female Heroes weren't a big thing for me, but those were "pulse bonuses" so everybody is getting those (not having a male elf option would have been stupid, but it looks like for now he's a website exclusive).

These new quests will be a testament to Hasbro's commitment for HQ going forward, and will probably make or break HQ as a commercial franchise going forward. As it stands, we are fans of HQ, but the concerns and lack of information mean that we are unable to be Brand Advocates for Hasbro. Unfortunately, as it stands, fans being Brand Advocates is pretty much what will determine the commercial future of HQ at this point.

They said they were willing to consider fan requests for new expansions after production. That was a line from the heavily scripted Q&A session. Maybe it's empty hype... surely they will look over the finances to see if they think its worthwhile. I figured the lack of any of the other expansions was probably a bad sign... that something was legally preventing them from doing ATOH, WOM, EQP or BQP... and so they did "new content" instead. By the time they created all that new stuff, they might as well have done a re-creation of one of those packs if it were just about time and effort.

My dream would be that the success of this game would push them to close some kind of deal with Games Workshop, whom many people (including myself) would like to see working on HeroQuest proper again. I don't know the forces involved, but it seems like a long shot. I'd much rather just have Chaos Warriors and Fimirs rather than having to create mods to make it look more like classic HQ with those characters.

Both D&D and the Warhammer World are so broadly generic in nature, that there's plenty of inspiration to be taken from them without challenging any Product Identity. The concern that HQ is becoming more like D&D isn't so much about D&D itself, but rather the changes that are being made to D&D and the impact it has had on the game.

This last sentence I really agree with. Since I started visiting the forums I've heard plenty of times where people are saying HQ is really just a "bridge" into D&D (so D&D is seen as a more highly evolved, mature game, and HQ fandom is just nostalgia at that stepping stone). Other folks I've seen make the game much more complicated, along the lines of D&D conventions. So to some people making HQ more like D&D is a positive, desirable goal. For others, it's entirely negative. I just would tend to want to keep 'em separated. Even so, I put a Boots of Speed card in my version of the Parley deck.

Are "Beholder" creates that exist in Warhammer fantasy? Because I thought that was a D&D thing, and they feature as an enemy monster in Legacy of Sorasil (that pc game may be set in a world other than the Warhammer one, but I'd have to read the intro again, I forget).

D&D has evolved a LOT, both in terms of gameplay and settings, for good and bad. The current trend right now, however, is the new zeitgeist of forcing social diversity issues from the real world into the game, either out of fear that social diversity wasn't already in the game, or out of trying to prove how "woke" the game or setting actually is.

And I faced serious criticism for basically siding with those who voiced that concern. I've tried to be more diplomatic since that time. I'd much rather criticize the companies who are enforcing those decisions against the will of their customers, as opposed to individual fans who happen to think that is the "right" decision and will allow it to influence their private gaming sessions. I think I said once that if an SJW invited me to their gaming table, I would respect their role as GM in their house. I also disagreed with those who were making the most catastrophic predictions about HQ's participation in this disturbing trend. Essentially they've given us a few more female heroes (on this side of the pond, female heroes were something we had back in the 90's), all but one of which were optional bonuses, and some non-optional female monsters. Until more details emerge, have an optimistic outlook.

I agree though, if you have fears, sharing them is a good thing. Otherwise for all we know, Hasbro might think that catering to these political trends is universally good for business. Hopefully they're not that short-sighted.

I was actually looking around for Fimir type figures as possible subs for the Abominations (I don't mind that monster design either, so it could just be another monster). Unfortunately I couldn't seem to find any designs I liked, not in plastic, anyway, but maybe I just need to get some green stuff and mod a generic "lizard man." Or 3d print something.

Thing is, that Hasbro can't say that HQ is set in the Warhammer World, however loosely, but they CAN say that it isn't set in the Warhammer World. MB also had this choice, but decided not to. After all, if Warhammer fans want to think that HQ is set in the Warhammer World, then that will lead to more sales for them.

Fair enough. I don't see anyone catering for Hasbro to say "no, it's NOT set in the warhammer world" explicitly. Even I don't want them to do that. I'm just assuming one or way or another they won't acknowledge it, and I'm giving you guys advice on how to adapt (if you choose "do not want" instead, that's of course a respectable option). It's like Star Wars fans... do you want this new movie, where we trash one of your favorite characters? "No thanks." We're not saying "hey, if you don't like it, you can spend hundreds of hours creating a less-than-legal bootleg fan-edit that fixes that odd character treatment!"

As far as I am aware, the Japanese edition was the only edition that wasn't set in the Warhammer World.

The island is shaped differently on the map than the (undated) Warhammer islands map I compared it to, so I guess that's right... It does mention chaos gods, a concept never mentioned before (or since) in Hero Quest lore (I'm excluding the novels, because I haven't read them yet in their entirety).

Instead it was localised with a "new" setting that would appeal more to a Japanese audience. However, there's plenty of room in the Warhammer World for the setting of the Japanese Quest Book to fit without disturbing anything, as even now, there's vast swathes of the Warhammer World that has barely had more than a few generalised paragraphs detailing it. Japan equates to Nippon in the Warhammer World, in the far east, but as far as I am aware, it has never been officially detailed as anything other than a land to the far east where ninjas come from - and that's paraphrasing. There's probably lore on it SOMEWHERE, if you dig around enough, but it's not like the Nipponese Army was core to Warhammer Fantasy.

When the Chaos god was defeated, tremendous tidal forces and earthquakes began, which shifted the landmass into what you see today... (holds up Warhammer map). Certain names of cities were changed thereafter, but the memory of these past events was added to the local legends and the bravery of those Western Heroes will never be forgotten.

Or did you mean HQ was set in A NEW WORLD? Like I said, as well developed as the Warhammer World is, there's always room for new places to be discovered. Domains come and go overnight in the Border Princes, and even in the Empire, where it's been charted to death, there's still new things to be found, new political regions defined, and new foes to face, whether hidden deep in the woods or under unassuming villages.

A group of wise poets once put it thusly, "another dimension... new galaxy... intergalactic, planetary!"

I even put a "Warhammer" into my version of the expanded armory (thanks to another board member for the artwork!). It costs 500 gold coins and may not be used by the Wizard. If I play the remake, it will still be available for purchase.