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COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

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COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby HispaZargon » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 8:06am

Comments on the contents?
(On behalf of Daedalus... :-))


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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby HispaZargon » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 8:08am

Here is compilation of relevant previous posts about this topic in this thread:

Kurgan wrote:Annnnd we'll be able to buy JUST the "Guardian Knight" expansion for $15 (pre-order) again through Gamestop, this time US

Sorry I doubted you, Reddit person...

So the female knight is righty and the male knight is a southpaw. Wish they had helmets...

So this is progress, I am glad they're releasing it like this instead of twisting people into buying ANOTHER game system to get these extras.

Blayze wrote:https://dorksidetoys.com/collections/homepage/products/heroquest-game-system-the-knight-character-figure-limited-run-pre-order

This site has pictures of the cards.

Six are gendered-art copies of each of the three abilities (Stalwart, Shield Block and Knight's Challenge).
Two are presumably the character cards.
Two are Shortsword and Shield.
The other two might be gendered-artwork copies of Shortsword and Shield, not sure (the art of all four is covered up).

Either way, best guess is there's two each of Shortsword and Shield, so two people can play the Knight at once and have all their starting references.

Kurgan wrote:Ah, so in that case, maybe there's no worry about power level, if they each only have the equivalent of three spells (more like pre-sent combat cards... skills less magic).

Since this is public and pre-release, it would seem to be kosher to post... (from the link you cited above)
Interesting, and nice to see they aren't just repeats of already existing abilities.

So basically, block one hit intended for another hero ("next to you"... adjacent only or same room/corridor?).... come back from the dead with 1 BP... and force wandering monster to attack you instead of the person who turned it up (in the same room). Each used once per quest and all but the last one require you to hang onto your shield to use them.

You've cleared up the mystery... if the remaining 2 cards are hero cards and then there are two copies each of the equipment they have (shortsword and shield).

HispaZargon wrote:About the new Guard Knights skills, does anybody know which card deck correspond their cards? I have not found a picture of their back yet.

Kurgan wrote:A good question. The Equipment cards would just be that. I imagine the backs of the cards probably resemble the artwork on the Hero turn cards if past is any precedent. Does it say "Knight spell" or maybe "Knight Skill" ? Don't know...

cynthialee wrote:those Knight Skill Cards seem pretty cool, but only being able to use these cards 1 time each rather limits the utility of taking this Hero. But then if you have this dude, why play the Barbarian? A fighter with special moves is better than one with out them.

HispaZargon wrote:Yeah, I think so... this new kind of heroes will eclipse the classic ones. The only little advantage for the Barbarian will be having 1 more Body Point but the Knights skills value is more than that. The Barbarian starts with a broadsword too... but knights start with shield... and what about the Dwarf? The Dwarf will only have 1 more Mind Point and his disarming traps ability then... those fighters seems to be at all better choices than Barbarian or Dwarf, I don't like too much it.

Anyway, according to classic canon and Warhammer lore, those new Guard Knights should be equivalent to Reiksguard Knights, isn't it? I always thought Sir Ragnar was one of them :-)

cynthialee wrote:Now if we get the Barbarian Quest Pack and the Barbarian only gear then the Barbarian becomes worth playing again.

Kurgan wrote:Good point. Exclusive potions and an Artifact that levels him up (similar to how the Elf is privileged in his quest pack). Then we'll need the Dwarf and Wizard quest packs to level up those characters.

Or we can start using the Japanese rules and all it will cost you is 500 gold per try!

The Reiksguard knight tribute connection is interesting. Actually the Knight was probably the first de-magicified thing we had... and the Skills (replacing Spells) sounds very familiar... appropriate!
Last edited by HispaZargon on Tuesday November 16th, 2021 9:18am, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby Pancho » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 8:12am

The 3 skill cards are consistent with Heroquest and are in fact very reminiscent of popular fan made stuff we have seen here down the years for similar characters (Paladin etc).
I imagine that someone involved in this pack has at least played Heroquest before, and actually like the game, unlike the Spirit Queen and Crypt of Perpetual Darkness material.


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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 8:46am

Yeah I think they're a fine addition to the game as an optional alternate character. The legit question from cynthialee who questioned whether this would diminish the Barbarian and/or Dwarf. It would seem you'd need the combat cards to make those two classic heroes still a viable choice. Then again if they give us the Barbarian Quest pack which upgrades the Barbarian and gives him some unique potions/Artifact.

It would have been cooler if the miniatures wore helmets though. Nothing says the mini has to exactly reflect their starting gear (the Barbarian appears to have a two handed longsword, the Dwarf appears to have a handaxe and wear a helmet or use some kind of great axe in the new version, the Wizard has a staff and cloak already).

One website is reporting the Knights won't ship until January, and expects delays of up to 2 months, which is quite a difference from the end of Nov, but we'll see.


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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby Pancho » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 9:34am

Kurgan wrote:Yeah I think they're a fine addition to the game as an optional alternate character. The legit question from cynthialee who questioned whether this would diminish the Barbarian and/or Dwarf. It would seem you'd need the combat cards to make those two classic heroes still a viable choice. Then again if they give us the Barbarian Quest pack which upgrades the Barbarian and gives him some unique potions/Artifact.

It would have been cooler if the miniatures wore helmets though. Nothing says the mini has to exactly reflect their starting gear (the Barbarian appears to have a two handed longsword, the Dwarf appears to have a handaxe and wear a helmet or use some kind of great axe in the new version, the Wizard has a staff and cloak already).

One website is reporting the Knights won't ship until January, and expects delays of up to 2 months, which is quite a difference from the end of Nov, but we'll see.

Yeah that’s one of the main problems, the diminishment of the proper HQ Heroes. An arms race has now begun maybe where fans will have to wait for/buy the upgrades for the Barbarian, Dwarf etc. This is kinda what I meant when I referred to “bloat” creeping into the franchise. I feel that a much better system would be to have a kind of matrix where EVERY hero can be automatically upgraded according to his type when he reaches a certain number of quests completed. That’s what I’ve done for my Heroes. But you can’t keep fleecing the fans that way.
Last edited by Pancho on Tuesday November 16th, 2021 9:48am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 9:45am

Upgrade system based on completing quests is what I agree with and something I've done for my characters as well. |_P

The intention appears to have been that there would be a quest pack for each hero, wherein they could either complete 3 solo quests OR proceed through the campaign and find an artifact that would grant them 2 extra body points and 1 extra mind point. They would also gain access to potions and/or artifacts that only that character could use.

The Japanese system would be that at a certain point they would be allowed to try to level up, simply by paying Gold and then it was luck of the dice, but they could go up several levels. Without these upgrades yeah... the the Barbarian feels even more generic, simply having 1 more Body Point but no "combat cards" compared to the Knight and lacking the armor.

If new players have the attitude that they have to buy new stuff to keep the game going, that's a problem. We all know you homebrew stuff, but not everyone has that attitude. The Knight is supposedly limited edition...

I would have used them as mercenaries, or perhaps retool the character to have fewer body points, but maybe some other perks like extra movement when wearing armor or re-roll defend dice with body armor, that type of thing. What would otherwise be a really generic addition could be interesting to play.

But since the Frozen Horror remake seems like a certainty, we can expect a Barbarian with 10 BP and 3 MP, so he'll still be the tank of the group even without the specialty potions. If they ever remake the Elf Quest Pack there's the question of which artifacts are truly exclusive to the Elf (some are, others are only implied). I'd love to see them finish up and release (as close as possible to the old notes) the Dwarf & Wizard quest packs too, but I wouldn't rely on them for balance either.

But yeah, if an addon breaks the original game, it's the addon's fault, not the original. Knights could be support characters, NPC's, mercenaries, etc. but chances are we'll be given no special rules for merging them into the base game, similar to 2 out of the 3 new heroes in mythic tier.

I agree that if you are going to start upgrading characters, you should make that available to all of them or you'll run into the issues already mentioned. No hero is meant to stand alone, and they're not competing to see who wins within the group, but there's always the question of "why would you ever want to pick this character?"

The idea that you should have to pay more money to make the game you already paid for not broken also seems off so I'm not in favor of that idea.


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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby Blayze » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 12:38pm

https://twitter.com/heroquest/status/14 ... 1917592579

Bringing the Knight to the UK--or at least, England--is up to Asmodee now.
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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby cynthialee » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 1:23pm

Having a house rule in place that the knight is only played if there is no other Fighter in the party. or...With 3 new heroes he could be the 4th for that party. Have the adventuring groups as their own grouping. Make the players decide which group of heroes they will take to the dungeon. (I think once I get the Knight that will be a new dynamic I try. Chose which party ...)
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby HispaZargon » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 1:28pm

Hi, according to classic lore, I think Guard Knights should have had 6 Body Points and 3 Mind Points.

Dwarves (7 BPs) are supposed to be unnaturally strong for their height and elves (6 BPs) are supposed to be stronger than a common human. Therefore a common human soldier should have 5 BPs, a little more than the Wizard (4 BPs) since he is not a fighter, but less than the Elf. Aditionally, the new Orc Bard has also 5 BPs... we can assume it as a non-soldier orc since is more close to be a musician. Knights are supposed to be trained human warriors so, ok, lets them to have 6 BPs, like the Druid who is supposed to be well trained in combat... but not 7 BPs like a dwarf warrior since its race is supposed to be stronger.

About MPs, I think Barbarian (2 MPs) should have less intelligence than a trained knight due to Barbarian has dedicated more time to fighting than studying tactics or discipline for example, so Knights intelligence may be a little bit higher, at least like the Dwarf one (3 MPs).

This stats changes I think balance better those new characters, even using the new combat/skill cards of the Knights. Current official stats for Guardian Knights (7 BPs and 2 MPs) do not fit well with the rest of characters, I think.
Last edited by HispaZargon on Tuesday November 16th, 2021 1:38pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: COMMANDER OF THE GUARDIAN KNIGHTS discussion

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday November 16th, 2021 1:38pm

Yeah, thus you have an Elf Level character with a specialized "spell set" (more like 3 combat cards), that is a better fit to me.

For the NPCs, the typical soldier is only 1-2 BP (and a 3 BP monster is considered "strong"), but you could reason that Heroes are the most exceptional examples of these individuals.

I was going to say with so many BP, this Knight as a merc would be much more expensive... perhaps 3.5x the fee of an ordinary man-at-arms.


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