Hero variations

[Goblin-King]

You could make a thread about your entire collected package in:

Board index ‹ HeroQuest ‹ HeroQuest Additions ‹ Other Expansion Topics

[Templar]

Then I will do so Much obliged!

[Ethica]

That is true...but I'd still like to keep it, so that they can get access to it on harder quests. Perhaps a simple price increase to 250 gold? Lika a sword, not cheap, but not expensive either?

That is a better plan. It goes along the same lines as buying a broadsword to equal a barbarians attack power.

[Daedalus]

Hi!

This is my second small expansion of the basic game system. After making some spell schools of my own, I felt that some variation of the magic users, and the other characters would be nice...without having to make up new skills and special rules. Just simple, small variations to get another feel for the player.

I divided the original characters into four groups: warrior (barbarian), specialist (dwarf), enchanter (elf) and mage (wizard). Then I created a new character in each group. The thought is that a maximum of two characters can be replaced with its counterpart. I want to know if the character names I have chosen are credable, and if their description is any good. (Edit: Enchanter used to be Semi-Mage)

Here's my take on things:

Balanced alternates for the basic four Heroes- works for me. Why are you thinking to limit the number of alternate Heroes to two or less?

The thing I'd most like to see is each alternate Hero's starting equipment included so that the sources of the Attack and Defend values is clear. Assuming equipment is partially setting your Attack and Defend dice values, here are some suggestions:

Warrior
Knight Description - "You are the knight. You are an exellent warrior who fights your opponents with honour." (Edit: used to be"...according to an ancient honour code")
Attack 2
Defence 3
Mind 3
Body 7

Starting weapon: Shortsword
Starting armor: Chain Mail

Why not a Helmet or Shield, instead? The reason is limiting the Knight to 7 Body Points puts him below the Barbarian, combat-wise. If the Shortsword and Helmet/Shield equipment (275-300 GC) is just a little higher in cost than a Barbarian's Broadsword (250 GC), that's not much of a deal for the Knight. 3 Mind Points doesn't even things up enough for a Warrior.

7 Body Points and 3 Mind Points works better for a Dwarf because he is compensated with an intrinsic skill that can't be equalled even with the purchase cost of a Tool Kit (250 GC).

Specialist
Assassin Description - "You are the assassin. Your advanced training means that few enemies can withstand your attacks, and you can always disable any trap you find. You can disable all normal traps next to you."
Attack 3
Defence 1
Mind 4
Body 6

Starting weapon: Broadsword (or see below)
Starting armor: None

I think it's gutsy and a cool option to start a Hero with only one Defend die, but there's a long-term penalty that needs to be addressed (maybe you already figured this). Starting a Hero with 1 less Defend Die is a permanent penalty while using the equipment available in the base game. A Dwarf donning Plate Mail, Helmet and Shield throws 5 Defend dice, but an Assassin with the same equipment is capped at 4. Conversely, a Broadsword or Battle Axe may be wielded equally by either Hero.

What does the Assassin gain for this permenant loss of defensive capability? Auto Disarm Traps ability (an occasional 1 in 6 advantage) just doesn't measure up to the Body Point protection of a Defend die (a common 1 in 3 advantage). I think the starting 3 Attack dice does work as an effective balance, but that becomes marginalized as other Heroes purchase similar offensive power. Additionally, I feel there needs to be some later Artifact or whatever to allow the Assassin to benefit from his superior Mind Points, otherwise he's losing in the trade-off of a lower Body Point total as well.

Just had a crazy thought: Make the starting weapon a crossbow! Now 1 Defend die and 6 Body Points is less of an issue. Not sure about balance, however. How about downgrading the auto Disarm A Trap ability to requiring a black or white shield instead? If he buys a Tool Kit, then Disarm A Trap on anything but a black shield. Hmm. Maybe just start him off with a Tool Kit and that's it- no ability at all. He's all about equipment, like a medieval James Bond.

I should tell you my own counters for this problem. Amongst my "easy" projects in this game I have made new equipment and spells as well, and my plan was to let them counter the weakness of 1 DD (amongst other things of course). One of the most crucial items is tha Leather Breastplate for 125 gold coins that gives the player 2 DD. It can be used by everyone, so the Druid can also get it. I hope the Assasin will have a high enough coolness-factor for people to take her at this point, but I'm also working on some very defensive spell schools to help Druid be a more valid option. (Nature spells ofc.)

The Leather Breastplate (at the later-mentioned 250 GC cost) is a nice, temporary solution for the 1 Defend die Heroes. I wouldn't allow 2 Defend dice Heroes to use it, otherwise why buy the more expensive Chain Mail? Their heroic fighting style isn't compimented by a Leather Breastplate- that's why...suck it!

For the reason I mentioned earlier, sometime after the other Heroes are outfitted in Chain Mail or better you may want to include an Artifact or two for the Defend-dice handicapped Assassin and Druid. It could be a class-specific defense item, or something else entirely. The idea is to re-balance the original Defend die penalty when it's cap limit starts to be felt.

Enchanter
Temple Guard Description - "You are the temple guard. Your armour and your magic skills gives you a defense without comparison. But remember that your ceremonial staff is not fit for combat." (Edit: character used to be Templar)
Attack 1
Defence 3
Mind 5
Body 5

Starting weapon: Staff
Starting armor: Helmet

You had already mentioned having prepared spells for the alternate spell-casters. Are you planning a new group of strong defensive spells for this Hero? At 75 GC more in equipment cost than the Elf, there isn't much of a bump for a loss of 1 Body Point. Alternatively, if Mind Points were made more important with an artifact, then maybe new spells wouln't be as necessary.

Mage
Druid Description - "You are the druid. Living a nomadic life in the wilderness has has taught you to fell prey quickly. But you can not handle longer battles without relying on your magic." (Edit: Changed after suggestion from Goblin-King)
Attack 2
Defence 1
You can use the same equipment as a wizard.
Mind 5
Body 5

Starting weapon: Scimitar
Starting armor: None

I went D&D and chose a scimitar, and a shillelagh or sickle could do as well. These weapons are an exception to the equipment limitations of a Wizard, as they provides 2 Attack dice. I'd move the equipment limitation somewhere into the fluff description, as the Wizard card does: (Your fluff)...You may only wear leather armor and may not use larger weapons (like a Wizard) other than your Scimitar....(Your fluff). If you prefer, you could just change Scimitar to Shortsword.

The Elemental spells also seem appropriate for this class, but you'd need two copies of the cards if a Wizard was also in play. If I understand correctly its a non-issue, as you already have other spells for a Druid cooked up.

Any critisism is appriciated

Hope you find some of this useful.

(1st Edit: Changed some tings after recieved criticism)
(2nd Edit: Changed the description of the druid and added his equipment capabilities to his stats)

[Templar]

Why are you thinking to limit the number of alternate Heroes to two or less?

It is was mostly to make sure that not everyone takes the new heroes just because they are new, but it will even out in the long run I suppose. I will drop this requirement.

Regarding starting equipment...in the swedish version, there is no starting equpment for the basic heroes, just values. Having starting equipment had not even crossed my mind...I will look into it!

I think it's gutsy and a cool option to start a Hero with only one Defend die, but there's a long-term penalty that needs to be addressed (maybe you already figured this). Starting a Hero with 1 less Defend Die is a permanent penalty while using the equipment available in the base game. A Dwarf donning Plate Mail, Helmet and Shield throws 5 Defend dice, but an Assassin with the same equipment is capped at 4. Conversely, a Broadsword or Battle Axe may be wielded equally by either Hero.

I think we have different verions of the base game. In the swedish version, the torso armour pieces give you a basic defence value instead of adding to it. So everyone who buys a chainmail will get to defend with 3 dice regardless of starting value. Is this not correct in your version?

Additionally, I feel there needs to be some later Artifact or whatever to allow the Assassin to benefit from his superior Mind Points, otherwise he's losing in the trade-off of a lower Body Point total as well.

This is exactly why I have made up my own rules and monsters ...so that players will benefit from higher mind points. I you're inetersted, I have started a combined thread for all my wheelings and deelings with the game here:
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=980
Goblin-King was nice enough to direct me to that subcategory, which will give a better perspective on the combined house rules.

The Leather Breastplate (at the later-mentioned 250 GC cost) is a nice, temporary solution for the 1 Defend die Heroes. I wouldn't allow 2 Defend dice Heroes to use it, otherwise why buy the more expensive Chain Mail? Their heroic fighting style isn't compimented by a Leather Breastplate- that's why...suck it!

The 2DD Heroes, wouldn't use it, since it does not change their defence value. Again this is probably a misunderstanding with regard to versions of the base game.

You had already mentioned having prepared spells for the alternate spell-casters. Are you planning a new group of strong defensive spells for this Hero? At 75 GC more in equipment cost than the Elf, there isn't much of a bump for a loss of 1 Body Point. Alternatively, if Mind Points were made more important with an artifact, then maybe new spells wouln't be as necessary.

I hope my new rules/monsters with adress this, but I might let the assassin start with a bow or crossbow or some throwing knives...

The Elemental spells also seem appropriate for this class, but you'd need two copies of the cards if a Wizard was also in play. If I understand correctly its a non-issue, as you already have other spells for a Druid cooked up.

My vision is to only ever allow one character of each class on the board. That means that if the Elf is taken there can be no Tempel Guard, and if the Druid is taken, then there is no Wizard. But yes, I have some spells that are inspired by the druid, although others can use them as well. I call them Wilderness Spells.

Thank you for helping me out, Daedalus!

[Daedalus]

D'oh! Your Steve Cobair icon fooled me. A more careful look at your info says Morcar is your Evil Wizard, and now that I think of it you made quite a few references to the Swedish version earlier in the thread. Maybe my suggestions can be useful for others who use the North American rules set, as I do. I trust you worked things out correctly for the European version of the rules. In the North American version, Chain Mail adds 1 Defend die and Plate Mail adds 2.

I'll definitely am interested in seeing how your rules all come together, as I also am working on a set that interrelates. I'm afraid there's a wait on mine, as I tend to over-complicate things.

[Templar]

I watch way too much Colbert Report for my own good ...and here, allmost noone have heard of him, so they dont get my awesome references...

And Morcar is indeed my evil wizard (and since I've played all the quests, it's most often him I end up playing nowadays), but even so I have taken some of your suggestions into consideration. So it wasn't all for nothing

[Daedalus]

If we were going to take a vote - I'd have to vote against the 1 defense, as well.
Look at the rest of the characters...with no armor, they all have 2 defense. That's
basically the defense of skin and minor combat ability...basically the ability to swing
a weapon at all.

If you wanted to give them a lesser defense, because their focus is SO FAR AWAY from
combat...you may want to tweak the original characters and give them +1 defense than
originally given. Then you'll need to give them +1 attack, as well, I think. Nothing wrong
with this really...they're heroes and adventurers...just add in a monster and a trap or two
into each quest...it'll all be good.

I considered something like this a while back-

Double the number of combat dice used by all heroes and monsters for attack and defence. Then you can introduce more new monsters that have strengths inbetween the others.

However, I'm not sure how (statistically) this affects impact on body points, I think you might need to double them too, perhaps Daedalus could advise.

Anyway, that's slightly off topic.

I learned from a thread before I found the Inne that I don't know much about statistical probability. A guy that studied statistics in college showed how much math is needed to accuratetely model the odds and values used in combat. Even he ran out of gas where Body Points are concerned, so the thread drifted off into limbo.

However, your application is simpler, so my layman's (somewhat innaccurate) take goes something like this: A regular attack from a Goblin would average 1 hit per turn. Every third turn you could count on 1 hit not being defended by the Wizard, so the Wizard would probably be slain on the 12th turn.

If you increased combat dice by a factor of 10 (for purpose of demonstration), then a Goblin could attack with 20 dice and average 10 hits in a single turn. A starting Hero could defend about 7 of those (6 2/3). Three Body Points of damage to a Hero from 1 Goblin attack would definitely merit an increase of Body Points. If you multiply the Wizard's Body Point total of 4 by the same factor of 10, he'd have 40 Body Points. That would also require about 12 turns of whittling away to off the guy.

Since multiplying combat dice and Body Points by a factor of 10 results in the same 12 turns for a Goblin to kill a Wizard as the standard dice rolls and Body Points do, I think it's safe to say you'd be right to double body Points along with the combat dice.

Of course, you'd need to make other adjustments. Things like healing spells and potions would need to increase, as well as the damage from traps and hazards.

[Daedalus]

Templar, I just wanted to reiterate that I think starting with a 1 Defend die Hero is a reasonable, interesting alternative (particularly if he has a ranged attack). That's better than a Goblin, and equal to a Skeleton or Orc.
I also posited in in this thread that Elven Warriors and Elven Archers start out with only 1 Defend die, which is increased to 2 Defend dice by Chain Mail.

Finally, most Mercenaries can also be interpreted as having 1 Defend die bolstered by armor: A Crossbowman and Halberdier can both be described as wearing Chain Mail and a Helmet, plus 1 Defend die. A Scout is either bears a shield and is wearing Chain Mail and a hat, or else his starting Defend dice with a Helmet must be 0! Only a Swordsman, who wears Plate Mail and a Helmet, starts with 2 Defend dice as his base and parallels the Heroes.

[Templar]

Yeah, I think I need to get some playtesting in to be sure if it works. These higher attack, lower defence characters that are affected I hope will be played to take a "finishing off" role...take down the final monster in a room before the evil wizards turn, or so that the others can search for things...

I will avoid messing with the scale of the dicerolling as much as I can, but if it is necessary I might have to go down that route.

Here are two magic schools I've made focused on the druid (but everyone can of course take them if they want). One spell uses some of my new rules, which can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=980 , in post 6

Wilderness spells
Wall of roots: This spell can target any player. This player may only be attacked with spells or ranged weapons, and the player may not move or attack until the spell is broken. Roll a dice at the beginning of the players following turns. If the roll is equal to or less than the number of turns the player has been affected by the Wall of roots, the spell is broken.
Hightened senses: This spell can target any player. The player rolls an extra battle dice in defense, until the player looses a body point. Then, roll two extra combat dice instead, until the player looses a second body point. After that, roll three extra combat dice instead, until the player looses a third body point. Then the spell is broken.
Primal Howl: This spell is cast on the player. All figures in the eight squares surrounding the player in the same room or corridor looses two mind points. Every victim rolls one battle dice for each mind point it had before the attack. Every shield rolled will reduce the damage from the spell by one.

Art of transformation
Lycanthropy: This spell can target any player. The next time the player moves, the movement has to be along the shortest path to the nearest figure. If possible, the player will attack this figure twice with three combat dice.
Regeneration: This spell can target any player. This player regains up to two body points. Other players who are in a square next to the target player regain up to one body point each.
Etherform: This spell can target any player. This player gets immaterial defence (can only be attacked by spells or in close combat by rolling as many combat dice as the attacker has mindpoints. Can in addition also move past other figures and are not affected by non-magic traps) with three battle dice, but moves only with one dice. The player also gets psycic attacks (No defence roll. Instead roll one dice for each mind point. If the player roll one or more 6s, the whole attack is igored. Also, affects mind points instead of body points) with one battle dice. These effects last until the spell is broken. The spell is broken when the player is injured OR sthe pell caster chooses to break it.