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Yet Another Magic Rework

Discuss new Rules for HeroQuest.

Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby girot » August 27th, 2018, 10:56 pm

I have mad an attempt to consolidate, update, and add a bit of depth to the existing magic system. This is always a point of contention with my Wizards whenever I get a group together. Everybody else gets to go shopping and gear up, except them. Below is what I've got so far. Please bear in mind that this is very much a work-in-progress. That being said, I am 100% open to feedback of any kind. DISCLAIMER: I am a big fan of mash-ups and crossovers. To that end you will probably notice that I am incorporating elements from the greats. This will amuse some and annoy others, and that is okay. In the event this little project becomes something more than a 9-layer nerd burrito intended for private consumption, I will sanitize it of all relevant IP. Until then, let the good times roll. :)

Now, lets get down to business...

MIND POINTS
A Hero’s Mind Points is a combined rating of their INTELLEGENCE, WISDOM, and CHARISMA. Some spells and environmental effects can use your Mind Points to determine if you are smart/tough enough to survive them, or to what extent you are affected. To better illustrate how a Hero’s Mind Points score translates, here are some examples. Unless stated otherwise, these examples pertain to Heroes only (human, elf, dwarf, and gnome) and do not include monsters, mercenaries, or other NPCs.
0) You are unconscious, brain dead, or undead.
1) Primitive intelligence, includes very basic problem solving and crafting ability.
2-3) Average intelligence for most major races.
4-5) Above-average intelligence, likely has had some formal training in the use of magic.
6-8) Advanced intelligence, likely a graduate of the Mage’s College.
9+) Extremely advanced intelligence, likely on the way to becoming an Arch Mage.

MAGIC & SPELLCASTERS

Magi’s Guild: All Heroes who cast spells, regardless of their Job Class, are members of the Magi’s Guild. The only exception are Elves who only know a single racial spell. Your Mind Points score determines your magical aptitude, the potential extent of your spell inventory, and what types of Artifacts/Magic Items you can train for and equip.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
That last bit is pending. I might leave out 'minimum requirements' in favor of class restrictions to keep things simple. Adding too much to the game defeats the purpose, as at a point it would be easier to just play Pathfinder.

1-3) You are unable to grasp even the basics of magical theory (no spells).
4) You have a natural/intuitive understanding and talent for the mystical arts (one spell group).
5) You are an Apprentice of the Magi’s Guild (two spell groups).
6) You are a Journeyman of the Magi’s Guild (three spell groups).
7) You are an Expert of the Magi’s Guild (five spell groups).
8) You are a Master of the Magi’s Guild (seven spell groups).
9) You are an Arch-Mage of the Magi’s Guild (all spell groups).

Off Limits: Job Classes not listed in Hero Creation are considered NPC classes, and not available for player use. Chaos spells are only available to NPCs.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
toying with the notion of creating a "black market" where one can obtain Books of Chaos...


Spells Groups: There are four core spell groups (Fire, Water, Earth and Air), three advanced spell groups (Divination, Protection and Shadow), and one legendary spell group (under construction). Each group comprises a Book of Magic.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
I haven't decided if I am going to make the NPC spells from Wizards of Zargon a thing yet or not...

 The first seven Books all contain three spells, while the legendary spells can only be collected individually. During Hero Creation, a Wizard must choose three of the core groups to start with.
 As you advance, you may purchase additional Books from the Mage’s Guild. As you collect new spells you will need to determine which you wish to prepare for use during your next quest.
 Your Mind score determines the number of spells you may use per quest.
 Unless stated otherwise, you may only cast any given spell once per quest.

Magi’s Equipment: Since stripping a spellcaster of her equipment removes her ability to cast spells entirely, this would indicate that she needs a physical means of casting. You must obtain and equip an appropriate item to be able to cast your spells at all.
I. Wands – Wands are the baseline equipment for spellcasters. They provide a means of targeting, focusing, and executing a Wizard’s spells. Like the Wizard, however, its power is exhausted through the casting of those spells. Even the best quality wands only have 9 good charges in them before they're exhausted. For simplicity sake, wands are reusable and automatically recharge between quests.
II. Wizard's Staff – Not to be confused with the mundane Quarterstaff. A proper Wizard’s Staff is a bit harder to come by, but worth the effort to obtain. They have the same number of charges as a wand, but gain the advantage of an additional physical attack. These are two-handed weapons.
III. Rods – Also known as “blasting rods,” these powerful upgrades from basic wands are extraordinarily difficult to create and maintain. They are rare and incredibly expensive tools of destruction. In addition to casting spells (up to 12 per quest), they also allow their owner to harness their sheer force of will as a weapon. Rods get a ranged attack (LoS, except adjacent) with 2 combat dice. Any damage dealt is normal physical damage, and is defended as if it were from a non-magical weapon.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
basically it's a magic crossbow

IV. Grimoires – There is no substitute for the classic spell book, or grimoire. These heavy and voluminous tomes represent the sum total of knowledge of the most renowned masters of magic. They allow advanced Wizards to cast their full catalog of spells during a quest. Though a book this size might do a bit of damage in combat, its contents are too precious to risk on such an attack. Instead, a grimoire is heavily enchanted with protection spells, and those protections extend to its wielder. This two-handed item reduces your attack to 0, but grants you +1 to your defense.

RACIAL ABILITIES
These are excerpts from this section specific to magic.
Races with innate magical ability do not require equipment to cast racial spells or abilities. Learned magic still requires the proper tools to utilize.
Elf Spells may be copied onto Spell Scrolls, but cost twice as much to create.
Considering changing "racial" and "Elf Spells" to "Fey magic" and "Book of Fey"...

Elven access to racial spells depends on Mind Points score (as above), but you may only ever prepare three of these spells to take with you on a quest.
1-3) You gain only one Elf Spell, chosen during Hero Creation, and cannot be changed.
4-5) You gain three Elf Spells, chosen during Hero Creation.
6-7) You gain three additional Elf Spells.
8-9) You know all eight Elf Spells.

Gnomes may select any one spell (including Elf Spells) during Hero Creation. They may use this spell once each quest, and never need equipment to cast it.
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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby girot » August 27th, 2018, 11:52 pm

We need a proper vendor for our magical means and methods. Thus we find ourselves visiting the Magi's Guild, where there are a number of services available...

GUILD SERVICES:
You can buy/sell magic items, equipment, and materials.
Visit the Alchemist (within the guild) to buy/sell/transmute potions.
Visit the Enchanter (within the guild) to buy/sell/trade magic scrolls.

Identify [25g] Potion! and/or Magic Item! cards you accumulate during quests. For a modest fee they can be identified for you (roll on the appropriate table).

Hero Training (very much under construction, considering ditching this entirely to avoid over complicating the game)
Read Magic Allows you to use Magic Scrolls.
Alchemy [2125g] Learn to brew your own potions (requires an Alchemy Kit and Reagents)! Gain the "Brew" and "Search for Reagents" Actions.
Transmutation [600g] Requires Alchemy. Transform one potion into another! (under construction)
Arcane Scribe [1200g] Make your own Magic Scrolls! (under construction)
Enchant [2125g] Learn how to create magic stuff? (under construction)
Disenchant [600g] Requires Enchant. Allows you to destroy one Magic Item/Artifact and recycle it into 1 Magic Dust.
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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby mitchiemasha » August 28th, 2018, 11:01 am

I alwasy thought the point of the Wizard was figuring out the advantages over using each spell at certain points through out a quest and learning to use them all, all the time... rather than expanding with bought equipment. The player evolves in their own MIND, playing the character (which in itself is genius). We never see a Wizard played well from first time wizard players. There's a lot they don't realise.

Plenty of good ideas to expand the Wizard here. Ways to expand the class to a more advanced set/players but i wouldn't say He was lacking in comparison to the Heroes and buying weapons. I'd say he was the opposite and a more complex character to play.


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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby girot » August 28th, 2018, 10:02 pm

mitchiemasha wrote: ...i wouldn't say He was lacking in comparison to the Heroes and buying weapons. I'd say he was the opposite and a more complex character to play.


Great feedback, thanks! From the perspective of a seasoned gamer, I would agree with you entirely. Unfortunately my existing player base is purely casual. HQ was simple enough I could get them into it within an hour, but the lack of "shopping opportunities" for the Wizard left her feeling left out between quests. I adlibed a little on the spot to fix the problem, but could see how it was going to snowball if I didn't create a proper fix. So here we are, lol.
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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby j_dean80 » August 28th, 2018, 10:35 pm

The Wizard could always purchase extra daggers to throw during a Quest. I allow 10, presumable carried in a pouch.

Once you reach the expansions there is the alchemist shop to spend on which is kind of expensive and worth saving money up for.
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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby mitchiemasha » August 29th, 2018, 4:51 pm

yeah... She should be reflecting on how she used her spells, what might work better next time. Took me forever to realise the advantages of some spells, like casting Rock skin on yourself at the start. Now, until your first wound you're stronger than the rest, a fearless Wizard. If she isn't using all her spells every Quest and casting 1 nearly every turn, she's doing it wrong.


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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby Daedalus » August 30th, 2018, 12:01 am

girot wrote:MAGIC & SPELLCASTERS

Magi’s Guild: All Heroes who cast spells, regardless of their Job Class, are members of the Magi’s Guild. The only exception are Elves who only know a single racial spell. Your Mind Points score determines your magical aptitude, the potential extent of your spell inventory, and what types of Artifacts/Magic Items you can train for and equip.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
That last bit is pending. I might leave out 'minimum requirements' in favor of class restrictions to keep things simple. Adding too much to the game defeats the purpose, as at a point it would be easier to just play Pathfinder.

1-3) You are unable to grasp even the basics of magical theory (no spells).
4) You have a natural/intuitive understanding and talent for the mystical arts (one spell group).
5) You are an Apprentice of the Magi’s Guild (two spell groups).
6) You are a Journeyman of the Magi’s Guild (three spell groups).
7) You are an Expert of the Magi’s Guild (five spell groups).
8) You are a Master of the Magi’s Guild (seven spell groups).
9) You are an Arch-Mage of the Magi’s Guild (all spell groups).

Why did you choose to deviate from the formula MP+3=spell groups? I would have thought a Hero with 7 MPs gets four spell groups for a smoother buff, not five. Is this because you figure Mind Point progression will effectively cap at 9 in your campaign?
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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby girot » August 30th, 2018, 12:49 am

Daedalus wrote:
girot wrote:MAGIC & SPELLCASTERS

Magi’s Guild: All Heroes who cast spells, regardless of their Job Class, are members of the Magi’s Guild. The only exception are Elves who only know a single racial spell. Your Mind Points score determines your magical aptitude, the potential extent of your spell inventory, and what types of Artifacts/Magic Items you can train for and equip.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
That last bit is pending. I might leave out 'minimum requirements' in favor of class restrictions to keep things simple. Adding too much to the game defeats the purpose, as at a point it would be easier to just play Pathfinder.

1-3) You are unable to grasp even the basics of magical theory (no spells).
4) You have a natural/intuitive understanding and talent for the mystical arts (one spell group).
5) You are an Apprentice of the Magi’s Guild (two spell groups).
6) You are a Journeyman of the Magi’s Guild (three spell groups).
7) You are an Expert of the Magi’s Guild (five spell groups).
8) You are a Master of the Magi’s Guild (seven spell groups).
9) You are an Arch-Mage of the Magi’s Guild (all spell groups).

Why did you choose to deviate from the formula MP+3=spell groups? I would have thought a Hero with 7 MPs gets four spell groups for a smoother buff, not five. Is this because you figure Mind Point progression will effectively cap at 9 in your campaign?


Thanks for the feedback! I wasn't familiar with that formula until now, lol. I'm still learning and/or relearning everything as I go. Advancement as I understand it is very slow, so a 9 MP score seems a very long ways off. Is there an actual cap or is that left up to Zargon?
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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby mitchiemasha » August 30th, 2018, 12:57 pm

The formula can go deeper. If we look at the characters in the original it all adds up. Mind + Body always = 10. Each character totals = 16

Barabarian
B8+M2+A3+D2+S1 (Use of weapons) = 16

Dwarf
B7+M3+A2+A2+S2 (Use of weapons, Disable Traps) = 16

Elf
B6+M4+A2+D2+S2 (Use of Weapons, 1 spell element) = 16

Wizard
B4+M6+A1+D2+S3 (3 spell elements) = 16

We can also look at MIND limiting skills. Some people see it as M4+ Unlocks Magic, then it's 1 extra set for each over but, i took it further... In Character Creation, every character can divide 10 points into their BODY and MIND. Attack and defense is Base A1 and D2. The more Mind you character has the more skills you can add. Some skills are 1 MIND others are 2 MIND. Use of weapons is 1M, Disable Traps is 2M, as is each element of Magic.

it's here... https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzUqo ... VJ4Zzl6RGc
Last edited by mitchiemasha on August 30th, 2018, 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Yet Another Magic Rework

Postby Daedalus » August 30th, 2018, 1:22 pm

girot,
The cap is up to Morcar/Zargon. How far do you want a game to go? I'd say at least 10 since the Barbarian gets 10 Body Points with the Amulet of the North from the Barbarian Quest Pack.

The "formula" isn't official. Different Inn members (and other HQ fans) have worked up their own creation methods over the years. I'd say Mitchiemasha has worked up a fine example of how to balance Heroes. A lot of consideration has gone into it.

Stephen Baker had once said that an early draft of the game included character creation, but it was dropped to more easily match the younger market. For the more mature nostalgia crowd, I'd say Hero creation is a sensible addition for many groups. Have fun with it.
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