Borin's Armor clarification

[Daedalus]

While I have my own opinion on the subject, I appreciate the investment of thought behind what everybody has presented. Both argurments were well stated, in my opinion. Sure, passion for the game may cause the tone to become polarized, but this is understandable to any of us who care about this long-out-of-print game. Thank you to those members for pulling back a bit, so that we all might get a chance to weigh in, whether a position appears right or wrong.

It has long been said here that Morcar/Zargon is the best answer to such inconsistencies. For a long while I privately chafed at the notion, being rather pendantic in my rules quoting (allowing for rules judgement isn't stated in the Instruction Booklet). However, thanks to other forum members I've come to see HQ's flexibility--its core simplicity that adapts easily to modding--as a strength when balanced with a firm sense of what the rules provide, as well as limit.

The expanasions (and WD Quests) were all produced with new elements to grow the game. I believe what Sjeng refered to is the last rule of Hero Quest, which is found at the end of the introductory rules sections of the EQP and the BQP:

Zargon, study this book carefully! While it is your guide to
running these adventures, it may not answer every question
you have during play. When in doubt, use your experience
and imagination to make the best choice. Remember that you
are the ultimate athority in your HERO QUEST world!

Nice parting advice. Everybody is right.

[Goblin-King]

Everybody is right.

But mostly me.

/thread

[chaoticprime]

Every single time I have ran Return of the Witch Lord against a group of players inherited from the Game System, Orc's Bane and Borin's Armor were disintegrated by the Quest 2 tomb trap. I have always described that as actually being Borin's Tomb.

[Sjeng]

Every single time I have ran Return of the Witch Lord against a group of players inherited from the Game System, Orc's Bane and Borin's Armor were disintegrated by the Quest 2 tomb trap. I have always described that as actually being Borin's Tomb.

That's a nice touch to the lore

Fortunately, when I was playing this, the Dwarf, who was wielding orc's bane, was in another room, so nothing happened. We don't have Borin's armor, because the current group started fresh halfway in the game system, and even had 1 new dwarf and 2 wizards since. But our DM (my wife) sometimes shuffles lost artefacts back in the game.

[chaoticprime]

I typically kill off almost all of the heroes a couple times in the game system. They always want to stand in the doorway and lure the enemies out one at a time to win, so I absolutely will not have monsters leave rooms. I also always have monsters utilize traps in their positioning, to bait heroes into them. I often kill at least one hero per quest. It has become common practice for the other heroes to collect dropped gear, because gold and equipment is too precious to waste.

I have never failed to completely destroy the heroes on their first effort to gain the Star of the West. The Witch Lord always corrals them into the "murder hallway" and finished them there. If any artifacts get lost when a party of heroes dies, I always place them somewhere in that same quest, unless its a quest full of undead. In that case, their stuff is usually where they left it (on zombies or skeletons of past heroes).

Because a room full of monsters is actually feared by heroes I am playing against, they usually do not search for treasure until the Quest objective has been completed, in case wandering monsters or traps diminishes their fighting capacity enough to cause a jeopardy. That's why I like Kellar's Keep so much, actually--its urgency traumatizes heroes out of searching every nook and cranny just to move on. They typically stop searching rooms that don't have anything interesting in them (furniture, etc). Borin's Armor, because I always cycle it back into the findings, almost always winds up as default gear until better stuff can be afforded by each generation of heroes.

Heroes that live too long, and have bought out the armory, basically run out of reasons to even have gold and usually just load up on daggers to throw at enemies that won't come out of rooms. For me, that is about as fun as playing Monopoly with three other players that each get to start with a hotel of their choice.

[Ethica]

Heroes that live too long, and have bought out the armory, basically run out of reasons to even have gold and usually just load up on daggers to throw at enemies that won't come out of rooms. For me, that is about as fun as playing Monopoly with three other players that each get to start with a hotel of their choice.

I recognise this.

I think the base set game is designed to be 1 complete game, you can't generally do more quests than those in the original quest book without expanding on the armoury, quest treasures, harder monsters and more interesting traps, unless like you say you're killing off heroes regularly.

As for the Borin's Armour debate. I am on the side that it's clearly supposed to be plate armour without penalty. Possibly you can argue more convincingly that you shouldn't be able to combine it with an additional helmet, but that's the kind of thing lawyers do to get criminals off. I'm 99.9% sure that the people who made the game intended you to be able to achieve 6 defence dice using Borin's Armour, it's no more than finding a suit of chainmail in a cupboard otherwise.

[Sjeng]

I typically kill off almost all of the heroes a couple times in the game system. They always want to stand in the doorway and lure the enemies out one at a time to win, so I absolutely will not have monsters leave rooms. I also always have monsters utilize traps in their positioning, to bait heroes into them. I often kill at least one hero per quest. It has become common practice for the other heroes to collect dropped gear, because gold and equipment is too precious to waste.

Wow, you're harsh xD But Zargon is meant to be evil, and you're doing a good job I think Maybe our games are getting too easy.

If any artifacts get lost when a party of heroes dies, I always place them somewhere in that same quest, unless its a quest full of undead. In that case, their stuff is usually where they left it (on zombies or skeletons of past heroes).

I like that idea! Dead heroes turned undead!

[chaoticprime]

Heroes that live too long, and have bought out the armory, basically run out of reasons to even have gold and usually just load up on daggers to throw at enemies that won't come out of rooms. For me, that is about as fun as playing Monopoly with three other players that each get to start with a hotel of their choice.

I recognise this.

I think the base set game is designed to be 1 complete game, you can't generally do more quests than those in the original quest book without expanding on the armoury, quest treasures, harder monsters and more interesting traps, unless like you say you're killing off heroes regularly.

As for the Borin's Armour debate. I am on the side that it's clearly supposed to be plate armour without penalty. Possibly you can argue more convincingly that you shouldn't be able to combine it with an additional helmet, but that's the kind of thing lawyers do to get criminals off. I'm 99.9% sure that the people who made the game intended you to be able to achieve 6 defence dice using Borin's Armour, it's no more than finding a suit of chainmail in a cupboard otherwise.

Other than that chainmail grants only one extra combat die and costs 500 gold coins. Chainmail and a helmet adds up to 625 gold coins. How difficult is it accept that those savings are significant to heroes by Quest 7? Completing Quests 1-6 yields a maximum of 1092 gold coins from rewards and treasure. There are 55 searchable areas (rooms + pit traps), with some 17 or so relegating first search attempts to non-treasure cards, meaning there are 208 chances to search for treasure. Treasure cards have a 1-in-3 chance of being gold coins, with an average payoff of 30 gold coins. This means that 1/3 of 208 searches can possibly yield another 2070 gold coins. This results in a total of 3162 gold coins probable up to the end of Quest 6, which when divided among the four heroes leaves them all with 790 gold coins. Therefore, how is Borin's Armor replacing the need to buy chainmail and a helmet not significantly beneficial?

[Ethica]

Like I said they could just as easily bung a suit of chainmail in the same cupboard and the gold saving would be accomplished. Boring armour has to be better than any other armour combination otherwise it's not a different item.

[chaoticprime]

Like I said they could just as easily bung a suit of chainmail in the same cupboard and the gold saving would be accomplished. Boring armour has to be better than any other armour combination otherwise it's not a different item.

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