Line of Sight

[StratosVX]

Wtf is all the confusion?

For eample that neither 1st nor 2nd edition uses the term "line of sight" in the rules, except for in the infamous diagram (which I think was created by someone else than the writer of the rules and doesn't reflect the written rules). Now there is an expansion that uses a term for spell casting that is not even defined in the rules.

Huh?

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. MINIATURES IN THE SAME ROOM ARE ALWAYS VISIBLE. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

The Line of Sight rule is right there! For when the target isn't in the same room.

Onan didn't say the line of sight rule doesn't appear, he said the line of sight term doesn't appear. There is a difference. The image references line of sight, but the rules very clearly don't use that term. It is pretty easy to see how the rules are confusing. How can you say that everything in a room is visible to be a spell target when the exact same setup in a hallway somehow makes it so the magic spell is obstructed. Using the infamous image from the rule book as a reference, in a passage, the elf cannot cast a spell on the orc that is to the right of the wizard because the wizard blocks the line of sight. However, if you use that exact same placement in a room, the wizard somehow no longer stops the elf from casting the same spell on the same orc. I believe this is what BlackJax is getting at when discussing the spirit of the rules.

[Gold Bearer]

This is so frustrating! I'm honestly very confused by people's sense of ambiguity where none exists. The rules are explicit and in no way unclear.

1.

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible.

If they are in the same room as the caster they are always targetable (unless the spell itself specifies that it requires LoS).

2.

Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

The very next thing after that quote is the LoS diagram, for when the target ISN'T in the same room (or the spell itself specifies that it requires LoS).

The Line of Sight rule is right there! For when the target isn't in the same room.

Onan didn't say the line of sight rule doesn't appear, he said the line of sight term doesn't appear. There is a difference. The image references line of sight, but the rules very clearly don't use that term.

So what? That diagram and the accompanying text is very clearly describing the Line of Sight rule, it even says "Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures." Where is the confusion? How is it any any way unclear that it's describing the Line of Sight rule?

It is pretty easy to see how the rules are confusing. How can you say that everything in a room is visible to be a spell target when the exact same setup in a hallway somehow makes it so the magic spell is obstructed.

Because magic spells are not physical projectiles! The projectile spells ARE LoS. YOU DON'T NEED TO SEE (in the LoS sense) THE TARGET IF YOU'RE IN THE SAME ROOM!!!

Using the infamous image from the rule book as a reference, in a passage, the elf cannot cast a spell on the orc that is to the right of the wizard because the wizard blocks the line of sight. However, if you use that exact same placement in a room, the wizard somehow no longer stops the elf from casting the same spell on the same orc.

So your point is that if you use the LoS diagram when the caster and target are in the same room (where it doesn't apply) then at times characters in the same room as the caster won't be targetable? Well obviously, that's why it says first that characters in the same room as the caster are always targetable (specific spell rules can obviously overrule this).

I believe this is what BlackJax is getting at when discussing the spirit of the rules.

That's hilarious! Well what they say they mean is this, but I think what they really mean is this.

[BlackJax]

I know I'm being a pain here, apologies.

Wtf is all the confusion?

For eample that neither 1st nor 2nd edition uses the term "line of sight" in the rules, except for in the infamous diagram (which I think was created by someone else than the writer of the rules and doesn't reflect the written rules). Now there is an expansion that uses a term for spell casting that is not even defined in the rules.

Huh?

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. MINIATURES IN THE SAME ROOM ARE ALWAYS VISIBLE. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

The Line of Sight rule is right there! For when the target isn't in the same room.

If the piece you have quoted above is the The Line of Sight rule for when the target isn't in the same room, then where is the line of sight rule for when the target is in the same room? Or are you suggesting that the quote above covers both so...

1a. Line-of-sight rule (for when target isn't in the same room)

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

1b. Line-of-sight rule (for when target is in the same room)

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster...Miniatures in the same room are always visible...

Then what is this rule below?

Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible.

[Gold Bearer]

If the piece you have quoted above is the The Line of Sight rule for when the target isn't in the same room, then where is the line of sight rule for when the target is in the same room?

Seriously?

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster.

Kay. So what is 'visible' to the spell-caster?

Miniatures in the same room are always visible.

I could be living in some parallel universe in which this piece of text uniquely exists so bear with me. That would explain why despite how many times I quote it, underline it, bolden it or capitalise it nobody else seems able to see it. I'll check later.

Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line...LoS stuff

[StratosVX]

If the piece you have quoted above is the The Line of Sight rule for when the target isn't in the same room, then where is the line of sight rule for when the target is in the same room?

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Again, this comes back to the intent of the rules and what is stated. The line of sight rule, per the written rules, only applies when the target and the caster are in different rooms or in the corridors. Nothing in the rule book says line of sight applies when in the same room except in the US instructions where it is very explicit about line of sight applying everywhere. The rules say you can cast spells on a target that is visible. However, line of sight does not mean visible, as line of sight rules applied in a room don't count. Rules of "visible" somehow change based on whether you are in a corridor or a room. We can all read the rules, and the wording of the rules has not been argued, so you don't need to keep quoting them in bold or large fonts. The issue here is the intended interpretation because of how the rules change.

It is pretty easy to see how the rules are confusing. How can you say that everything in a room is visible to be a spell target when the exact same setup in a hallway somehow makes it so the magic spell is obstructed.

Because magic spells are not physical projectiles! The projectile spells ARE LoS. YOU DON'T NEED TO SEE (in the LoS sense) THE TARGET IF YOU'RE IN THE SAME ROOM!!!

But you need LoS rules to cast it in a corridor. Even though it is not a physical projectile. By your own admission, you don't need to have LoS to cast the spell, so the LoS rules shouldn't apply in a corridor. Thanks for admitting that the spells should ignore LoS rules in a corridor.

BlackJax, this is up to you, but I would advise you to discuss this with your fellow players and pick the interpretation you all agree on, even if this means you change the rule you pick based on who is playing. If you go with the US version, at least the logic of rules are consistent.

[Onan]

Rules of "visible" somehow change based on whether you are in a corridor or a room.

Exactly. According to the EU rules, the wizard can target the , but the elf can't target the . It is the same geometric situation leading to different results, and this is not satisfying.

losroompassage.JPG

So I wonder why they didn't simply say: "same room or passage". What's so special about passages to use different rules? What's the motivation behind this complication? My guess is to make the following situation work:

lospassageblocked.JPG

If castig spells on all targets in the same passage was allowed, the wizard would be allowed to target the , who is behind a blocked square. And this should not be allowed.

[Gold Bearer]

Yes, seriously. Again, this comes back to the intent of the rules and what is stated. The line of sight rule, per the written rules, only applies when the target and the caster are in different rooms or in the corridors. Nothing in the rule book says line of sight applies when in the same room except in the US instructions where it is very explicit about line of sight applying everywhere. The rules say you can cast spells on a target that is visible. However, line of sight does not mean visible, as line of sight rules applied in a room don't count. Rules of "visible" somehow change based on whether you are in a corridor or a room.

Exactly this!

Thanks for admitting that the spells should ignore LoS rules in a corridor.

[comment deleted]
You just said

The line of sight rule, per the written rules, only applies when the target and the caster are in different rooms or in the corridors.

so you know full well that you do need LoS in a corridor.

So I wonder why they didn't simply say: "same room or passage". What's so special about passages to use different rules? What's the motivation behind this complication?

The way I interpret it is that you don't have to actually see a target, you need to know exactly where they are. This is much harder to do in a tight corridor if your LoS is blocked than it is in a room.

[Gold Bearer]

As a general heads up for those who are interested, I just saw that the three chaos sorcerer spells from Against the Ogre Horde are also Line of Sight. I'd forgotten that. So that's eleven in total (not including the AoE spells) that don't use the standard spell sight rules. The three anywhere spells (Fire of Wrath, Genie and Spirit of Vengeance), half of the orc shaman spells (two of the other three affecting the room you're in and the other being Spirit of Vengeance, so no standard sight rules for greenskins evidently), the three chaos sorcerer spells and the two projectile (Arrows of the Night and Skulls of Doom) spells.

[Parzival]

The reason the language is different for a corridor than for a room is because a corridor includes all squares of a corridor uninterrupted by a stone wall block. A corridor includes the corners, the intersections, and the path beyond them. Clearly the rules writers were acknowledging that crossbow bolts and some spells can’t turn 90° at a corner, despite that corner and the rest of the passage beyond it being “in the same corridor.”

A room, however, is a simple open block area— no 90° turns, no intersections, just open space. But a doorway into a different room effectively creates an “intersection” same as a corridor.

The basic rule of thumb is that you can’t see through a wall. Period.
But you can see through a doorway, and you can see anything in a room that you are also in.

So if a spell states “any target the caster can see” (or similar language), then if the caster is in a room, that becomes any creature in the room, no matter where it’s located or who or what might be obstructing the Line of Sight. The spell in question doesn’t care whether the three-foot tall goblin is jumping up and down in the caster’s face, waving its hands in the air to mess up the caster’s view of the Gargoyle across the room— it zaps the Gargoyle regardless. Presumably either the magic is called into existence at the spot of the target (and thus follows no physical path to the target), or the magic is quite capable of behaving as a guided missile and zooming around anything or anyone intervening.

However, a crossbow shot *does* care that something is in the way, even if only partially, because the crossbow quarrel is a physical object which must follow a physical path, which must be a straight line, as it is *not* in any way a guided missile.

So, you can cast spells through a doorway, but only to objects in the room not blocked by a wall, because you have to see the target. But in a room, you *can* cast a spell at anything in the same room, unless the spell specifically states that line of sight (not visibility) is required.

[StratosVX]

This ignores the main point that started this iteration of the conversation, which is outlined in Onan's post above. The wizard's spell can target the goblin that is in the same room as him. The elf's spell cannot target the chaos warrior that is in the same corridor as him, even though the formations are the same. This goes against the idea of magic being called into existence at the point of the target that you and Gold Bearer mentioned. I want to be clear here, I am not arguing the point that magic spells are called into existence at the point of the target. I've never said anything contrary to that because it could be the case. However, what is it about a corridor that prevents the elf from being able to do the same thing the wizard can? Why can the spell be called into existence on the goblin hiding behind a wall of chaos warriors, but not on the chaos warrior that is behind the jumping goblins? Characters absolutely should be able to tell that another enemy is behind the one in front of them as that's how "visibility" should work. However, the rules of visibility seem arbitrary. So far, nobody has presented a case where the written rules applied to the situation Onan laid out makes sense, which is ultimately what was being debated. You could say that the lighting in a room is likely better than a corridor, except that a spell could be cast from one end of the board to the other provided there is nothing in the way. If lighting was an issue, then you would not be able to do this because you wouldn't be able to see the target.