PROPHECY OF TELOR discussion

[moktira]

I too am curious to see how it plays using the rules Baker was originally working with (1st or 2nd edition).

I'm glad I read your posts as I probably otherwise would have had an experienced party playing them. I'd rather play a pack like this with as little modification as possible (accounting for official errata fixes of course).

It would also be interesting to see how the First Light quests he wrote played using (approximated of course since some new rules are added) EU rules.

I'd be curious to play First Light and then Prophecy of Telor with a new party (and original rules but would have to use like Ogre Horde Chaos spells, or even some High Wizard from WoM or something). PoT sounds mixed enough though, like things need to be stripped down a little.

[The Admiral]

Just looking through this quest and I am wondering how the Heroes are meant to get through the Arena of Misildia if they can't use spells, artefacts or equipment. What do they attack with? And their defence will be useless, while getting attacked by a load of monsters. They can heal with potions but that doesn't kill monsters?

[Vorimir]

They can use normal (non magic) equipment.

[Nlinindoll]

Just looking through this quest and I am wondering how the Heroes are meant to get through the Arena of Misildia if they can't use spells, artefacts or equipment. What do they attack with? And their defence will be useless, while getting attacked by a load of monsters. They can heal with potions but that doesn't kill monsters?

Unfortunately, a revision in the retail release of Prophecy of Telor resulted in this errata.

In Quest 10, Note G, the Mythic Quest book read: “No spells, MAGIC weapons, armor, or equipment may be used in the arena.” (Capitalized emphasis mine)
The later released Retail Quest book read: "No spells, artifacts, or equipment may be used in the arena."

By dropping the word “magic” it makes the rule sound as if the heroes are supposed to fight completely unarmed. And the Quest Notes don't supply the rules for unarmed fighting (like we see in the base game quest 6) and it doesn’t make sense for the lore/story of the Arena. The arena is supposed to make magic inert, NOT steal your weapons. The original Mythic text makes sense. The Retail text does not.

[The Admiral]

Thanks Ninindoll, that's quite a big error!

[The Admiral]

I see there has been some discussion concerning the vial in Quest 8. Here is my take to make it make sense, to me anyway:

The False tomb is to stop robbers finding the real tomb. The secret door is also not findable, but as the text says, "Its presence will cause the secret entrance to glow blue." So, the mere presence of the vial in room A causes the tomb to turn into a table and the secret door to glow blue. The secret door cannot otherwise be discovered. The vial is thus still intact in room G where it can be smashed to release Telor.

[The Admiral]

There is a little anomaly with level 2 of Quest 3 The Great Stairwell. There is nothing forcing the Heroes to leave the stairs in this quest other than they must clear all monsters before they can progress, and to attack monsters they must leave the stairs. But level 2 has no monsters the Heroes are aware of, so in theory, if they don't wish to do any searches they could all just stay on the stairs expecting to progress to the next level. What happens next?
1) They are all progressed to the next level.
2) The Evil Wizard player informs the Heroes they can't progress because there ARE monsters on this level, they just haven't found them. Zargon then promptly removes the bookcases, surrounds the Heroes and proceeds to kill them all as they can't attack from the stairs.

Both of these are unsatisfying outcomes. Solutions?
1) Zargon says 'you cannot progress up the stairs', doesn't trigger the trap and leaves it up to the Heroes to realise they must do something else.
2) Allow actions to be performed from the stairs. Not sure why this isn't just allowed anyway, and will be my solution.

[Kurgan]

I don't think there's a problem telling the heroes that all monsters must be cleared before they can progress (meaning all monsters in the quest, not just one level).

As far as the stairs being a "safe space" it really isn't. The rules somewhere (I'll have to look for the exact quote) clarify that if heroes try to attack from the spiral staircase, monsters can also engage them in combat. So I don't think this quest is broken.

Edit: I checked the PDF and it says for Quest 3 that the heroes have to move OFF the staircase to perform any actions (which would include combat).

Quest 2 says monsters can't be moved into the Stairway tile and heroes are "safe" there, but it doesn't say they can engage in combat and I think this is only referring to this specific quest, not proposing a universal rule for all Stairways.

[The Admiral]

I don't think there's a problem telling the heroes that all monsters must be cleared before they can progress (meaning all monsters in the quest, not just one level).

As far as the stairs being a "safe space" it really isn't. The rules somewhere (I'll have to look for the exact quote) clarify that if heroes try to attack from the spiral staircase, monsters can also engage them in combat. So I don't think this quest is broken.

Edit: I checked the PDF and it says for Quest 3 that the heroes have to move OFF the staircase to perform any actions (which would include combat).

Quest 2 says monsters can't be moved into the Stairway tile and heroes are "safe" there, but it doesn't say they can engage in combat and I think this is only referring to this specific quest, not proposing a universal rule for all Stairways.

This really hasn't addressed my point at all. This is the situation I am describing:
1) The heroes are set up on the stairs of level 2 (The Library of Woe).
2) They see there are no monsters on this level.
3) They do not wish to perform any search actions, and cannot attack as there are no monsters, so they all remain on the stairs expecting to progress to level 3 (The Grub room).

What happens next?
Option 1: The Heroes progress to the next level.
Option 2: The Heroes don't progress to the next level because there are monsters on this level. Zargon now removes the bookcases and places the six monsters which promptly surround the Heroes on the stairs. It actually doesnt matter if the monsters can attack or not. The rules of this quest prevent the Heroes from attacking from the stairs, so they will never be able to clear the room and therefore never be able to progress.

Option 1 does solve the dilemma, but feels crappy. Option 2 really isn't an option at all. Hence my solution of simply allowing combat from the stairs.

[Kurgan]

This really hasn't addressed my point at all. This is the situation I am describing:
1) The heroes are set up on the stairs of level 2 (The Library of Woe).
2) They see there are no monsters on this level.
3) They do not wish to perform any search actions, and cannot attack as there are no monsters, so they all remain on the stairs expecting to progress to level 3 (The Grub room).

Don't worry, there's a simple solution...

What happens next?
Option 1: The Heroes progress to the next level.
Option 2: The Heroes don't progress to the next level because there are monsters on this level. Zargon now removes the bookcases and places the six monsters which promptly surround the Heroes on the stairs. It actually doesnt matter if the monsters can attack or not. The rules of this quest prevent the Heroes from attacking from the stairs, so they will never be able to clear the room and therefore never be able to progress.

Option 1 does solve the dilemma, but feels crappy. Option 2 really isn't an option at all. Hence my solution of simply allowing combat from the stairs.

There you go. Heroes have always been allowed to attack monsters while they stand on the staircase. You've solved it. But if you want a deeper analysis...

Step 1: Heroes appear on the stairway and don't know what to do. They try to leave, Zargon prevents them.
Step 2: Zargon suggests that they must clear the level of monsters before they can progress to the next level.
Step 3: Heroes may object that they don't see any monsters. Zargon suggests they must find them.

Alternately, Zargon can say nothing except preventing them from progressing. The heroes have two options...

Option 1) By trial and error someone searches for traps and triggers the furniture illusion to disappear and the monsters to be there. Here the hero might try to search while standing on the stairs and Zargon could say something like "you must step off of the stairway to perform this action," prompting them to do so.

Option 2) The heroes get through all their turns not having searched for traps. Zargon removes the furniture and the monsters attack.

It's no problem if the heroes stay on the stairs, because the basic rule is that the Stairway is not a "safe space" to avoid combat (only an escape route normally at the end of a quest). It's stated in the basic rules that a monster and hero can share the same tile. It's clarified in FH and MOTM that if a hero attacks a monster while on the staircase, the monster is free to engage them in combat. Entering the staircase tile to leave a quest is for when that is the exit, but quest specific rules always modify the basic rules anyway (on a quest-by-quest basis, usually).

It doesn't say here that the monsters can't attack the heroes if they remain on the staircase, only that the heroes on the staircase don't get to perform actions until they first move off of the staircase.

The only clarification needed here I think is that probably Stephen Baker didn't intend that no hero could perform any actions until there were no heroes remaining on the staircase as if they ALL had to leave the stairs together (or he might have forgotten that "attacking" is within the category of "action"). The first hero to leave the stairway can perform actions (that is, searching). If he doesn't search, "actions" should only apply to searching, not fighting. One hero could do all the work, while the others stood passively on the stairway (but would not be protected from monster attacks) and then leave together if they are victorious over the monsters. (Now if the Rogue happens to be in the party, he can just pass through monsters freely anyway and attack them from the other side of the stairway! If someone had Dust of Disappearance they too could move through the enemies since it doesn't cost an action to use this artifact. Of course these are surely edge cases)

But yes, if we take it strictly literally and prevent attacking and the use of magic from the staircase at all times, this could trap the heroes to their eventual deaths if they wait until Zargon's turn and he mobs the stairs. Of course even in this absurd case, Zargon can see he's "broken" the scenario and give the heroes a path to fight, or just simply allow it because that's always within his power. If the heroes can attack and/or use magic on the stairs, even if surrounded, they can defeat these monsters and move on up.

I guess even taking the literal path and feeling confused, you could find a loophole and say that the heroes can't advance UP a level without clearing the monsters, but they could retreat DOWN to the previous level? If I were Zargon and they did this, I would be evil and have the previously killed level 1 monsters respawn... once they kill these (again), they can move to level 2 again and are free to fight the monsters from the stairs (because they have technically moved off the staircase once, and are now free to do actions on level 2). Kill the monsters, move to level 3.