Overview of the Old World

[Cael Darkhollow]

I still think Rogar is from the Border Princes, and the player's Barbarian from the base game is from Norsca, the barbarian character from Growl of Thunder certainly is. If we assume that the barbarian from the base game will continue on to play all the expansions and official GW extra quests including GoT and The Frozen Horror then it makes the most sense to stay consistent with the one that has the homeland identified in Got.

but if we say the Barbarian player hero is from the "borderlands" (generic area, lower case "b") as in any bordering area of the Empire and choose to skip Growl of Thunder...

then the southern border of the Empire is the Black mountains, not really an apt fit for the Northlands frozen description for the BQP.
the Grey Mountains and World's Edge Mountains framing the Empire to the east and west aren't a good fit for his frozen homeland either, at least not the portion of the World's Edge Mountains bordering the Empire, further North the WE mtns are frozen but not where they are actually touching the Empire's border, along Sylvania and whatnot.

That leaves the northern border then. On the NE border of the Empire is the Sea of Claws technically excluding Norsca from being "borderlands" of the Empire, while to the NW Kislev's borders with the Empire are far south of the city of Praag on the map, eliminating the mapped barbarians such as Sarls and Baersonlings from the Troll Country as a possibility, as the Kislevites are the Empire's true nearest northern neighbors bordering in that direction.
Given the loose "borderlands" interpretation that would mean the barbarian has to be from Kislev...not a great fit in my estimation.
To be from just any "border lands" we would also have to skip the Barbarian Quest Pack info and quests as well as Growl of Thunder.

I prefer the detailed information confirming the barbarian hero's homeland as Norsca in the Growl of Thunder intro text.

Interesting about the back of the 1st edition UK base game system box though, stating the barbarian is from the borderlands (as well as Rogar in the rules book) it seems we have located a retconned idea that was edited out of other editions of the game. I can see why, the Frozen Horror expansion quest book makes zero sense in the Border Princes proper, and I think if it was in Kislev it would have a very different feel located in the Ice Queen's realm than the quest as written is. Norsca is still the best fit for the barbarian homeland as any farther north into the chaos wastes and the land is distorted and roaming bands of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Spawn mutants are the norm, not villages of barbarians totally unaffected by the Chaos taint.

[Cael Darkhollow]

Northlands vs. Northland (back of box vs. quest book) in BQP. And hair dye in some form or another is extremely ancient in our world, so probably for theirs too.

HQ Historical detective work is fun!

Yes it is.

Hair dye does exist in Warhammer, the Dwarf berserkers known as slayers have stiffened dyed orange hair and beards, and in early editions (3rd) both Wood Elves and High Elves had war dancer swordsmen that had brightly dyed hair often blue or red.

I prefer to think that Conan doesn't dye his black mane of hair (although Arnold in the Conan movies should have) because Howard describes his race of Cimmerians as all with dark black hair. Since the Les Edwards HQ box cover art and the HQ character card clearly are imitations of Conan (as depicted by Frank Frazetta) then it stands to reason he isn't a hair dyer but comes from a race of black haired giants among men.

I have a custom "Army of the North" in my Warhammer game armies of around 50 figures consisting of Vanir with red hair (viking style clothing and weapons), Aesir with blonde hair (viking style clothing and weapons), Gundermen with brown hair (Germanic clothing and weapons), Picts (consisting of early Scots/Celts/Irish style clothing and weapons), and Cimmerians with raven black hair and typical furry shorts bare chested glory (HQ's fantasy barbarian kinsmen.) I have a few Were-berserkers (werewolves and werebear), a Wooly Rhino and Wooly Mammoth war mounts, and a male and a female Frost Giant, but no artillery, wheeled vehicles, siege or ballistic weapons to speak of, and finally a Barbarian shaman to invoke primitive nature magic.

I guess we can say the barbarian is from anywhere to the north. To paraphrase Game of Thrones "anything north of the wall (civilized kingdoms) are all Wildlings" even though they have many distinct tribes and consider themselves separate nations.

[Pancho]

I place the events of the Frozen Horror in Norsca too. I’ve also used it as a location for my quest pack based on the Heroquest novels. Our Barbarian could be from any of the Barbarian clans north of the Empire really, but Norsca just seems like a good fit.


P.S. What is it with you guys always trying to put stuff in the Border Princes!? First Davane wanting to put the Elven Kingdom there, and now Cael with Rogar.
I’m just joking with you, the Border Princes were always pretty cool as a setting. Warhammer players liked it because it was kind of a no mans land with multiple claimants where you could pit lots of different races against each other.

[Davane]

Cael, you in particular might be interested in the Kislev Army List from Citadel Journals 14 to 16.

Citadel Journal 14

Citadel Journal 15

Citadel Journal 16

The background for Kislev is in the first part, and is written by Tuomas Pirinen, so is about as Warhammer official is it gets without being written by Rick Priestley or Jervis Johnson themselves! You should find, in this background, that Kislev is far from civilised, and thus makes a very good fit for certain barbarian types. Kislev isn't just Prussia, but the whole of Russia and Siberia squished into that small space. Given how famous Siberia is for it's coldness, it makes a definite home for any Taiga or Tundra roaming Barbarian tribe that has to deal with the Frozen Horror and Ice Gremlins...

[Cael Darkhollow]

Cael, you in particular might be interested in the Kislev Army List from Citadel Journals 14 to 16.

Citadel Journal 14

Citadel Journal 15

Citadel Journal 16

The background for Kislev is in the first part, and is written by Tuomas Pirinen, so is about as Warhammer official is it gets without being written by Rick Priestley or Jervis Johnson themselves! You should find, in this background, that Kislev is far from civilised, and thus makes a very good fit for certain barbarian types. Kislev isn't just Prussia, but the whole of Russia and Siberia squished into that small space. Given how famous Siberia is for it's coldness, it makes a definite home for any Taiga or Tundra roaming Barbarian tribe that has to deal with the Frozen Horror and Ice Gremlins...

Thanks! that was a fun and interesting read. While I have nearly all the Warhammer books, I do not have many White Dwarf Magazines and no Citadel Journals. Always fun to time warp and see what was happening in gaming decades ago.

I am well versed in Kislevites. Out of all the many Warhammer fantasy armies ever to see print, I chose to not buy, model, paint and march to battle only two: the Kislev army and the Chaos Dwarf army.

One reason was they weren't well supported in that their army lists didn't get books like the other armies but random errata in magazines. Few models were ever released for either, and the ones that were were strikingly different in theme from the regular fantasy genre.
The Chaos Dwarfs had a Soviet cold war rocket theme with very stupid pope-tall hats overlaid on a pseudo-Babylon/Assyrian coiled beard and winged centaur motif. They didn't match any fantasy race from Dungeons & Dragons or Lord of the Rings looking completely out of place fielded next to knights, orcs, elves etc.. It just didn't work, the race was too comical impossible to take seriously, and it didn't last long before they discontinued it completely besides a few Forge World figures. They did have Hobgoblin wolf riders as allies and I quickly snatched up those more compatible fantasy models for command units of my goblin wolf rider figures from Battlemasters. I prefer the dark dwarf races of Duergar and Derro found in Dungeons and Dragons rather than the lame Chaos Dwarfs of Warhammer.

Kislev was included on allies lists for the Empire but for many many years the only models ever released was the Kislev Winged Lancers. Players who wanted to field a Kislev contingent or actually build a pure Kislev army were forced to make custom models to represent them as none were available beyond the previously mentioned fast cavalry lancers. The Cossack style eastern Russian more modern feel of the army again clashed and didn't fit with my more high fantasy tastes of a world inhabited by dragons, trolls, skeletons and wights. They seemed more suitable for clashes against Napoleonic troops or even German WWI troops. Hard to lose yourself in medieval fantasy when you hear Tetris music in your head while reading about Kislev. I never got into them. I didn't buy the Ice Queen book for Fantasy Role play either, the realm of the Ice Queen always seemed more like the Nutcracker than the Hobbit to me.

I have been collecting Conan the Barbarian stuff for many years. I have every story ever written that I am aware of. My favorite HeroQuest model is certainly the barbarian purely for the reason that I am a huge Conan fan. His powerful prominence on the stunning HQ box art is just beautiful. The essence of the imaginary world I want to play in. But I always play the dwarf instead.

The black haired blue eyed muscular giant Cimmerian Conan the barbarian doesn't fit the overall theme of Kislev or any of the peoples native there for me.

"The mainstay of the peoples of Kislev are the Gospodars : tall, broad-shouldered, blonde or red-haired people with deep voices."
"The men of the taiga are known as the Sibyrians and area huge bearded silent folk. Their appearance and language have a distinctly eastern influence"
"Cossacks are nomadic people who live in the far north. Riders and scouts without peer"
"Huns, the most primitive and savage of all the peoples of Kislev, little more than animals. They file their teeth, scar their bodies and enter battle in a state of berserk fury."

The tall muscular black haired Heroquest barbarian is missing from that list. Sure Kislev has its wild and barbaric regions as well as its cities and merchant ports, and is suitably icy enough to represent the quest pack, but the barbarian in Heroquest just isn't a Kislevite, he's Norscan. Different feel and culture entirely.

[Cael Darkhollow]

I place the events of the Frozen Horror in Norsca too. I’ve also used it as a location for my quest pack based on the Heroquest novels. Our Barbarian could be from any of the Barbarian clans north of the Empire really, but Norsca just seems like a good fit.


P.S. What is it with you guys always trying to put stuff in the Border Princes!? First Davane wanting to put the Elven Kingdom there, and now Cael with Rogar.
I’m just joking with you, the Border Princes were always pretty cool as a setting. Warhammer players liked it because it was kind of a no mans land with multiple claimants where you could pit lots of different races against each other.

I was keenly aware of the irony of resisting his Border Princes Elf Kingdom position and my equating and advocating for Borderlands=Border Princes argument. It seems our friend Davane has developed a Warhammer campaign for HeroQuest long before that has most of the action in the Black and World's Edge Mountains and he is sticking to his previously developed narrative. Cool. Or alternatively is more loose in his interpretations allowing many possibilities instead.

I have always imagined HQ inside the Old World and play it as a part of that, but I have never tried to piece together a campaign before and place quest events outside of the dungeon onto a map. We always played HQ for what it was, a board game. While I did have all of the North American releases since Jr. High School, I have only acquired nearly all the Warhammer references available after many years of collecting, so only now can begin to sleuth together what I feel is the best fit for HQ locations and time based on evidence.

[Davane]

Actually, I was thinking more that there are areas claimed by Kislev that aren't actually all that well controlled, mostly around and beyond the Worlds Edge Mountains. Even then, this is only if you want to consider borderlands literally. I have no problem with the barbarian coming from Norsca, and it's well documented that the WHQ Barbarian comes from Norsca. Despite being across the Sea of Claws, I would still consider Norsca to be bordering the Empire, much as I consider Albion, a little further out, to be bordering the Empire.

What's interesting with the Norscan barbarians are that they very much like Erik the Viking in theme, they were adventurers, explorers, traders, and seafarers, as well as raiders and marauders. There's no reason why at least one successful Norscan barbarian hasn't established a flourishing tribe living in the Border Princes, or in the wilds of Kislev and the Northern Chaos Wastes, for that matter.

The Border Princes are great, because it's literally a wilderness that can be used for anything and everything, because it's a microcosm of the Old World. It's a bit too south for extreme climates, but for everything else, it's there. The little of it that has been mapped is normally out of date before the cartographer gets back to the Empire to report it. It's a GM's dream, and it serves as that little bit of space where, even in a world as detailed as the Warhammer World, a player can still dream of owning their own "kingdom" in the Old World, if they have what it takes to claim it and keep it.

It kind of reminds me of the Companion modules for the D&D Known World, which was largely unmapped precisely so you can not only have an "hex-crawl" adventure there, but then you get to keep some of those hexes for yourself! Mapping wise, the Border Princes looks a lot like the map from Battle Masters, or one might even consider the map generation system from Mighty Empires...

[Pancho]

Slightly off topic but do any of you guys know the deal with the 5th edition Vampire Counts?
What I mean is, I had the 4th edition Undead army book (and a decent army for it) but only recently heard that there was an evolution for that force as “Vampire Counts” in 5th edition. I have no idea how that passed me by at the time, and I always thought that the move to create the Vampire armies as a distinct army book came later when I had stopped playing the game.

[cornixt]

I don't know of any of the GW background reasons. Vampire Counts in 5th edition was pretty much just Undead but with the mummies, skull throwers, and chariots taken out, replaced with more classic Transylvania style stuff. Tomb Kings of Khemri was just a White Dwarf article for a while - It didn't have an army book until 6th edition. I guess it didn't matter too much, the time between the 5th ed book and the new 6th edition that made it defunct was only a couple of years.

[Cael Darkhollow]

Slightly off topic but do any of you guys know the deal with the 5th edition Vampire Counts?
What I mean is, I had the 4th edition Undead army book (and a decent army for it) but only recently heard that there was an evolution for that force as “Vampire Counts” in 5th edition. I have no idea how that passed me by at the time, and I always thought that the move to create the Vampire armies as a distinct army book came later when I had stopped playing the game.

I don't know of any of the GW background reasons. Vampire Counts in 5th edition was pretty much just Undead but with the mummies, skull throwers, and chariots taken out, replaced with more classic Transylvania style stuff. Tomb Kings of Khemri was just a White Dwarf article for a while - It didn't have an army book until 6th edition. I guess it didn't matter too much, the time between the 5th ed book and the new 6th edition that made it defunct was only a couple of years.

Undead was seen as a unified force in WH 1-4th editions, the traditional gothic horror themed army of vampires, zombies, skeletons, banshees, bats and wolves with wights from the barrow mounds of pre-Empire tribes and mummies transported from distant Araby all controlled by a powerful necromancer either a human sorcerer or an undead lich.

By 5th edition they were busy filling in the map of the tropics to the south and in the new world because Lizardmen were the flagship army along with Bretonnians in the boxed set.
The area known as "Araby" was largely rewritten as Khemri, a Egyptian themed area. Plans were developed for a khemri undead army which was largely skeletal contolled by lich priests and Tomb Kings, the renamed mummies of former editions.
The traditional gothic undead army minus the mummies became known as Vampire Counts, and as the army info was largely already written so they quickly released a book.

Simultaneously they were fleshing out the main undead bad guy Nagash's back story as originating in Khemri before becoming lord of the undead and having vampire lieutenants for his armies. These vampires became the various types of vampires based on different attributes and now could be the army general instead of a necromancer or lich.

In 6th edition the Tomb Kings book was released and a new updated Vampire Counts book just over a year after the first Vampire Counts book as well much to the chagrin of fans other army books that hadn't been updated for years.

Now there are two undead armies, the Egyptian themed Tomb Kings that were Nagash's enemies when alive and rebelled against his control as undead, and the gothic horror Transylvania themed undead now ruled by vampires as Nagash was defeated by a mortal (with Skaven ratmen help) and wouldn't return to threaten the realms for some time.

Skeletons (and zombies) are weak field units so you must buy large blocks of models to make them effective in WH battles, a shrewd business decision to create a second undead army that was largely skeletal that would rake in profits from model sales.
Undead are popular anyway (they look so cool) that they were able to sell both armies simultaneously and develop them further according to their different themes.

Similar decisions resulted into fracturing the unified Chaos army of early Warhammer editions into multiple groups as independent armies such as Chaos Warriors, Beastmen, Skaven, and daemons as WH editions progressed eventually splitting even different types of demons into their own armies of Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch. Remember the company's structure was to sell as many army books as possible and as many models for those armies as possible.

That is why there are two undead armies in Warhammer, if there had been more popular undead themes in pop culture or fantasy fiction there would have been 20.

Undead found in Warhammer Armies books
8th edition Vampire Counts January 2012
8th edition Tomb Kings May 2011
7th edition Vampire Counts March 2008
6th edition Tomb Kings January 2003
6th edition Vampire Counts April 2001
5th edition Vampire Counts June 1999
4th edition Undead May 1994
3rd edition Warhammer Armies (undead) 1988