Plate Armour

[knightkrawler]

Now who derailed this topic?

[Count Mohawk]

Now who derailed this topic?

That was me, actually. I wouldn't have guessed that idle talk about guns vs plate mail would lead to football, though!

As I recall, the original question was whether or not Plate Mail deserves its movement penalty, and if not, what other debuffs should be applied to it instead. Instead of answering this question myself, I will instead answer something Daedalus said three pages ago:

A simple modification is to still allow a Hero wearing Plate Mail to roll 2 red dice for movement, but one must be discarded (the lower one, or just one if they are equal)....

It's only slightly better - I still can't see myself wearing that to be honest.

Now a house rule can't be expected to please everybody, but here's another go at it that is hopefully more tempting:

Plate mail is so heavy that you must roll two red dice for movement twice and use the lower result while wearing it.

You're twice as likely to roll a lower than average result, and half as likely to roll a higher result...right? Overall, it yields a higher average movement than the better of two dice, I think.

The average roll for "roll one red die twice and take the better of the two results" is about 4.5.
The average roll for "roll two red dice twice and take the worse of the two results" is about 5.6.
Thus, Daedalus's suggestion offers a slightly higher movement rate.

[Gold Bearer]

the guys who wrote the original rule had no clue about armor
Plate armor DOES NOT SLOW YOU DOWN enough to worry about. When I saw a man do cartwheels in a full suit of plate I knew most of what I thought I knew about armor is bogus.
Of all the bogus and stupid rules in the game ...the plate mail movement penalty rule is the lamest.

Seriously? A dwarf who can disarm traps just by looking at them. Heroes drinking potions to save themselves after they've been killed. The dwarf and barbarian casting spells from scrolls. Heroes not being able to move on squares more than once during their turn.

I think if anything the movement penalty for plate armour isn't enough. If you look at the card it depicts a full suit of armour, not plate mail. Plate armour in my game is the lowest of two dice, although it gives five defence dice and I renamed plate armour to plate mail. Doing a cartwheel in full armour doesn't mean it doesn't impede mobility. I would think that once they throw themselves into it the weight of the armour will carry them through so the overall effort is about the same. Try getting them to run more than a few metres in it. Also in reality it would be more about stamina than speed but HQ is a simple game and even in a more advanced game that would be a pain to implement so a movement penalty is the best way.

[cynthialee]

the guys who wrote the original rule had no clue about armor
Plate armor DOES NOT SLOW YOU DOWN enough to worry about. When I saw a man do cartwheels in a full suit of plate I knew most of what I thought I knew about armor is bogus.
Of all the bogus and stupid rules in the game ...the plate mail movement penalty rule is the lamest.

Seriously? A dwarf who can disarm traps just by looking at them. Heroes drinking potions to save themselves after they've been killed. The dwarf and barbarian casting spells from scrolls. Heroes not being able to move on squares more than once during their turn.

I think if anything the movement penalty for plate armour isn't enough. If you look at the card it depicts a full suit of armour, not plate mail. Plate armour in my game is the lowest of two dice, although it gives five defence dice and I renamed plate armour to plate mail. Doing a cartwheel in full armour doesn't mean it doesn't impede mobility. I would think that once they throw themselves into it the weight of the armour will carry them through so the overall effort is about the same. Try getting them to run more than a few metres in it. Also in reality it would be more about stamina than speed but HQ is a simple game and even in a more advanced game that would be a pain to implement so a movement penalty is the best way.

a bunch of equivocation

[Count Mohawk]

Seriously? A dwarf who can disarm traps just by looking at them.

Wait, this is a thing that can happen? I was always under the impression that in order to disarm a trap, the dwarf (or a Toolkit user) had to move onto the trapped square and announce his intention to disarm it.

I think if anything the movement penalty for plate armour isn't enough. If you look at the card it depicts a full suit of armour, not plate mail. Plate armour in my game is the lowest of two dice, although it gives five defence dice and I renamed plate armour to plate mail.

Choosing the lowest of two dice has an expected movement value of 2.5, less than half the movement rate of an unencumbered Hero. I don't know enough about the other armor options in your system to judge, but a penalty that steep would strongly turn me off from buying plate, which is not exactly ideal. From a game design perspective, you want all the items in your shop to be reasonable purchases. Even the shortsword has a use, as a cheap weapon you use before you get enough gold to upgrade to a longsword or battle axe.

Now, if you allow free movement outside of combat, there's no real downside to wearing the heaviest armor you can get, since you don't have to worry about falling behind your fellow Heroes and most monsters will have to attack you from close range anyway. That's neither here nor there, though. (As a quick aside, if you don't have a Crossbow, enemy Crossbow users become practically impossible to defeat unless you take the armor off to chase them.)

[Gold Bearer]

Are you kidding? I'm one of the few people who enjoy a football game tactically* and try to analyze what's happening as it progresses.
I and tasoe are the only sports nerds in here, as far as I know.

* I don't understand why the really great teams, I mean those with the appropriate player material, don't play a back three against opponents who set out in a 4-4-2 more often.
With a back four both CB's are taken on by the opponent's CF's which is dangerous and why one DF has to come deep to become a third CB, thus being disconnected from the passing triangles through midfield and wings. A back three would have a CB to cover and step up on occasion to play balls. Hummels would be perfect for that, between Sokratis and Subotic, both playing on their inside foot. The WB's (Durm and Piszczek/Großkreutz) would provide width and have freedom to go through to the touchline. There's still three midfielders who could overrun the opponent in the centre of the park (Bender, Mkhitaryan, Kampl vs. 2). In case the opponent's CF'c step back to overload midfield, Hummels can step up substantially, hitting even more accurate and dangerous balls. Immobile's strength could play out best next to a second CF, Aubameyang. Of course, Reus will take that second spot if he stays. There's one weakness: one WB on either side against a FB and a WM each which could account for some trouble over the wings. But pressing out of possession would mean for the left-channel CF to cover the opponen't RB and the right-channel CF to cover the opponent's LB. The only safe passes to uncovered teammates the opponent could play would be a triangle of two CB's and one DM, which can devastatingly be interrupted by Auba's lightning speed.

This is how I think Thomas Tuchel, Borussia Dortmund's new coach, will try to set out into games, at least as long as it works without Dortmund sliding into a relegation zone. A second season with this they will go for titles and Champions League again. There's some positions who need to be addressed with the acquiring of top-quality players: a GK, a left WB, a DM (and I mean defensive, not a passer like Gündogan is) and a CF to cover for Immobile or replace him. Another strong fast CM would help, too. When playing this system, Kagawa could be the second striker and drop deep to overload midfield even more in build-up play if Reus leaves.
All in all, I predict Tuchel will try to implement this 3-5-2 or even a variation of a Marcelo Bielsa-style 3-3-3-1 with the following setup:
Langerak - Sokratis, Hummels, Ginter (Subotic; but Ginter must be finally trusted, constantly playing games) - Piszczeck, Bender, Durm - Aubameyang, Kagawa, Reus - Immobile
with fluid positioning and heavy pressing.
I'll come back to this thread once my predicitons have proven true. The player material is there even as is. With some lucky improvements in some positions... who knows what this formation could be capable of. The acquisition of Gonzalo Castro has been confirmed. He will be shuttling CM material and can play RB or even right WB if he's fast enough for that job. Definitely a utility player suited for both formations and sets of requirements. In the old system which I doubt we'll see often if one of these two is successful, he can play next to Bender as a DM, as a RB, or even as the #10. He's luxury to have in any team once he's settled.

This is an example. And I'm not even close to being a Borussia Dortmund fan.

3-5-2 doesn't work. It was fashionable in England about twenty years ago (think it came from the continent) and a lot of premiership teams used it for a while and then gave up with it. The only top flight team here to use it consistently in recent years is Aston Villa.

4-2-3-1 is the ultimate formation, where one of the two is a holding anchor type midfielder and the other is a play-maker. The wide attacking midfielders aren't too far removed from play by being stuck out on the wings and the lone striker has plenty of support with the central attacking midfielder almost playing the role of a deep striker and the other two free to make dangerous runs into the box.

the guys who wrote the original rule had no clue about armor
Plate armor DOES NOT SLOW YOU DOWN enough to worry about. When I saw a man do cartwheels in a full suit of plate I knew most of what I thought I knew about armor is bogus.
Of all the bogus and stupid rules in the game ...the plate mail movement penalty rule is the lamest.

Seriously? A dwarf who can disarm traps just by looking at them. Heroes drinking potions to save themselves after they've been killed. The dwarf and barbarian casting spells from scrolls. Heroes not being able to move on squares more than once during their turn.

I think if anything the movement penalty for plate armour isn't enough. If you look at the card it depicts a full suit of armour, not plate mail. Plate armour in my game is the lowest of two dice, although it gives five defence dice and I renamed plate armour to plate mail. Doing a cartwheel in full armour doesn't mean it doesn't impede mobility. I would think that once they throw themselves into it the weight of the armour will carry them through so the overall effort is about the same. Try getting them to run more than a few metres in it. Also in reality it would be more about stamina than speed but HQ is a simple game and even in a more advanced game that would be a pain to implement so a movement penalty is the best way.

a bunch of equivocation

How's that? You need to stop being so darn touchy when someone doesn't agree with you. You keep doing that. You give opinions on entirely subjective issues as though they were facts and give suggestions as though you're giving orders to people who work for you. Would you like some examples? Tough, I can't bothered to look for them. Just click on some random posts that you've made and you're bound to find one.

Seriously? A dwarf who can disarm traps just by looking at them.

Wait, this is a thing that can happen? I was always under the impression that in order to disarm a trap, the dwarf (or a Toolkit user) had to move onto the trapped square and announce his intention to disarm it.

They fixed it in the US version but yea, the dwarf really can do that in the real rules. In fact all four of those silly rules only apply to one version. The middle two from the US version and the other two from the proper version. Just kidding, kind of. I think we all think of the ones we grew up with as the proper rules.

I think if anything the movement penalty for plate armour isn't enough. If you look at the card it depicts a full suit of armour, not plate mail. Plate armour in my game is the lowest of two dice, although it gives five defence dice and I renamed plate armour to plate mail.

Choosing the lowest of two dice has an expected movement value of 2.5, less than half the movement rate of an unencumbered Hero. I don't know enough about the other armor options in your system to judge, but a penalty that steep would strongly turn me off from buying plate, which is not exactly ideal. From a game design perspective, you want all the items in your shop to be reasonable purchases. Even the shortsword has a use, as a cheap weapon you use before you get enough gold to upgrade to a longsword or battle axe.

Now, if you allow free movement outside of combat, there's no real downside to wearing the heaviest armor you can get, since you don't have to worry about falling behind your fellow Heroes and most monsters will have to attack you from close range anyway. That's neither here nor there, though. (As a quick aside, if you don't have a Crossbow, enemy Crossbow users become practically impossible to defeat unless you take the armor off to chase them.)

I don't allow free movement outside of combat. The full suit of armour defends with five dice though so that's seven with a helmet and shield. That's the price for being a tank. It's also slightly cheaper than plate mail (750gp) and I've got a couple of heroes with a movement skill that allows them to move faster while wearing armour. My knight for example can't be slowed any more than rolling one movement dice.


That was a very mixed post.

[knightkrawler]

Fret not, people, I took the football topic into PM areas. Tee-Hee.

[cynthialee]

Yes we do make believe and we invent crazy ideas like heal potions. But when we say that plate armor is so heavy we must loose 1 dice for movement then we are going beyond make believe into just making it up.

As for me being confrontational....I am tired of being blown off and belittled by a few of you dudes.
Just because I have boobs does not make me one. Just because I am in a mans culture doesn't mean I should be treated the way I have been.

I offer good solid ideas. Ideas that have functioned well for me for years and often is blithely lessened... repeatedly.

[knightkrawler]

Let me be the first to speak aloud, because I was the first to be smacked in the head with that accusation.

Do not play 'The Card'!
You offer an idea, someone offers a different idea. it's called a freakin' discussion, for crying out loud! Well, actually it's called a discussion, not a freakin' discussion.
What am I supposed to say when people criticize my ideas? Do I have a card? Show me to it, be so kind!

Have you ever leaned back and wondered if anyone would honestly make the effort to blow off any one of your ideas just for the sake of it?
You are not always right, especially not in matters of taste, like in freaking games! People discuss. Let them. This is not Electric Universe vs. General Relativity and you are pulling this thread down to the level. THAT is sad.

[Gold Bearer]

Why cry sexism just because people don't agree with you? I don't think it has anying to do with the size of your mamory glands, definitely not from me. Four of my top six martial artists are women. If anything I've noticed members being overly polite to you.

Why do you find it so wrong that plate armour would halve movement? Even chainmail weighs a ton.

No offense but you're a bit overly sensitive at times, even for a bleeder. Sorry, couldn't resist. But seriously, you can be very defensive. Nobody's attacking you.