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Crossbow Argument

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from HeroQuest Game Systems.

Re: Crossbow Argument

Postby CavemanLogic » Friday April 7th, 2023 1:02am

Hello Bareheaded Warrior. Thanks for replying! Sorry, I didn't see your reply until now. I really do need to get on the site more often...

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:Several different "Crossbow arguments" here, but focussing on the one that ironically isn't about crossbows, then I agree that limiting throwing weapon range makes sense but that opens up two follow-up questions.

1) If you limit based on BP (starting BP) then there is a problem as heroes and monsters BPs are deliberately NOT balanced in the game (so Heroes can kill lots of monsters which is fun), how would a physically weak Wizard with virtually no weapons training be able to throw a hand axe accurately at a distance of 4 squares (or even at all, but that is a different question) but a battle hardened Orc would risk losing his toes with a measly 1 square effective range which makes it unusable, or a mighty muscle-bound Fimir with a range of two squares... Incidentally Olympic Javelin throwers aren't built like the World's Strongest Man entrants which suggests skill and technique might be more of a factor than strength alone...

This is why I clarified the limits based on multiples of their BP in my post above. Heroes have a thrown weapon range of *twice* their current BP. They are "heroic" after all, and even the Wizard is trained in throwing knives. As they become injured, their range goes down... But a fully healthy Barbarian would have a range of 16 squares. A fully healthy Wizard would have a range of 8 squares.

Monsters, because I know their BP are deliberately not balanced in the game, I give a thrown weapon range of *five times* their current BP, with a cap of 15 squares (because of the physics in relation to ceiling height I mentioned in my previous post, *and* because 15 is a multiple of 5). So a Goblin or Orc would have a respectable range of 5 squares. A muscle-bound Fimir would be able to throw up to 10 squares. And a massive Chaos/Dread Warrior or a Gargoyle could reach 15 squares. Any named or Boss Monsters with a larger starting BP would simply have a max range of 15 squares.

Yes, I realize the Barbarian's range is one square farther than any Monster, but I think it is just simpler that way to say 2x current BP for all Heroes. But it might be better to hard cap everyone at 15 squares to keep it consistent. I could go either way on this point though.

You are correct, regarding your Olympic javelin thrower comment, that skill and technique are also important factors. But for simplicity's sake, and in keeping with the simplicity of the HeroQuest rules in general, I think the asymmetric ranges based on BP (2x for Heroes, 5x for Monsters, 15 squares max) is a good rule. HeroQuest only gives us two main stats to work with: physical (in the form of Body Points), and mental (Mind Points). In that respect, I guess we can say that BP represents the combination of strength, agility, dexterity, etc. If you were to port your favorite D&D character over to HeroQuest, the combination of your Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution stats would become your HeroQuest Hero's BP. Intelligence, Charisma, and Wisdom would all be combined into MP.

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:2) How do thrown weapons move? In the World of HeroQuest movement does not include diagonals, so do thrown weapons count squares in the same way as characters move, you would assume so, but it feels odd...

Yes, I suppose only counting orthogonal squares is the way to go. Once you have determined that you do indeed have Line of Sight to your target, even if that is just squeezing through the diagonal space between two occupied squares, then you orthogonally count those squares for range, *regardless* of what may occupy those squares. Think of a Knight chess piece. He moves two squares in one direction, and one in another. That would translate to a range of three for HeroQuest thrown weapons.

EDIT: After re-reading my previous post just now, I did mention towards the end of it that, to keep things simple, it may be better to base thrown weapon ranges on *starting* BP instead of *current* BP. I guess I didn't explicitly state it, but I did mean that the 2xBP range for Heroes and 5xBP range for Monsters was still in effect. So it could have been that part of my reply that you were replying to when you said Goblins would only have a range of 1 square?


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Re: Crossbow Argument

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Friday April 7th, 2023 6:00am

I think I understood what you were proposing, which I’ve summarised below.

1. Heroes have a thrown weapon range of twice their current BP.
2. Monsters have a thrown weapon range of five times their current BP, with a cap of 15 squares.
3. Option to cap max range at 15.
4. Thrown weapons move as characters move, orthogonally.
5. The Wizard is trained in throwing weapons.

And simpler variant
• Use starting BP rather than current BP.

My counterargument was that assuming we want/need a range limit on throwing weapons and that we want to keep things simple then surely the suggestion below is sufficient, anything else is just complications.

Throwing weapons are limited to a maximum range of 15 squares and move like characters move, orthogonally.

The bits I didn’t understand were:

Why choose to map the maximum range to the current BP, causing the weapon effectiveness to drop as you weaken, as that introduces inconsistencies as your other hand-to-hand combat attacks, your movement, your ability to jump or shoot (and reload) a crossbow don’t diminish as you weaken so why choose to introduce this inconsistency (unless you go for the simpler variant that you mentioned)

Why choose to map the maximum range to the starting BP characteristic, bearing in mind as we both know that is “rigged” for game purposes, making that choice then means that you have to introduce further complications, your rules 1 & 2, introducing complications and new rules to compensate for your choice to base it on BP. Simpler just to choose not to base it on BP in the first place.

Hence my proposal which is basically just your rules 3 & 4

Point 5 is a weird one (and not your fault!) as under EA rules, the Wizard doesn’t have the ability to use throwing weapons, and why would he, the whole point of the Wizard and his weapon restrictions is based upon the premise that he has (mis)spent his youth learning magic arts rather than martial arts, so I never understood why the NA edition decided that he had taken time out from his magic studies to learn the skills required to throw weapons. If you accept that premise then could have also taken time out to learn the skills of missile weapons so can use the crossbow, and perhaps unarmed combat, advanced weapon training – so he could use the longsword, trap disarming and everything else…I never understood that change.

Personally I have the Wizard equipped with a Dagger (that cannot be thrown) and have a separate Equipment type of "Throwing Knife" that, unsurprisingly, can be thrown and isn't accessible by the Wizard.
Super HeroQuest Rule:
:skull: = white skull, lose 1BP unless blocked by shield
:blackshield: = black skull, as white skull + activates push back
:whiteshield: = shield, blocks a skull

Editions: FE = European and Australasian First Edition, SE = European and Australasian Second Edition, NA = North American Edition

HeroQuest Gold based on SE, reworded for clarity, common issues resolved, and have ported the better ideas from NA edition
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