Crossbow Argument

[Kurgan]

I'm not sure that works, but I will need to re-read it when I'm a little less tired. I may regret this and have to go back and edit my post later...

I can understand wanting to read the text (the Instruction booklet + Armory board/Equipment card) in such a way as that our favored interpretation comes out and I think as is, it is vague. I can appeal to the Japanese version, but realizing a year, a language and an ocean separates them still leaves wiggle room to say it was a revision or simply a difference not a clarification. I can appeal to game balance, but not realism (there's no realistic reason why a crossbow, especially one that can be wielded one-handed, couldn't be fired at point blank range) as to my favored interpretation.

The "arrow" drawing has that one anomalous arrow that doesn't follow the "exact center of the figure" "good rule of thumb."

I guess the reason why I think the "one diagonal square" thing doesn't work is that if you took a figure and placed another figure one square above it, so they are adjacent, and then pivot the "top" figure 45 degrees to the right or thereabouts, he falls into the diagonal square. So to me that's still touching. But if you move him a full square away, then he's within "range" of the crossbow according to the limitation suggested by the Armory text.

I see the Longsword's strength in that it can basically hit "all" of the squares that the Crossbow can't hit. I see them as being complementary weapons. But that requires me to reject the possibility of the near diagonals thing. If I accept the latter, then the problem is introduced, and that tempts me to ponder all these house rules to try to re-balance them (adjusting prices, making one of the weapons 2 handed, etc). The Longsword was the new factor, being introduced in the NA rules, but the Crossbow's range (and all ranged abilities) were limited in this version as well, so it's not just the longsword's fault. Maybe if they had left out that one arrow in the drawing, that would have made it more clear.

I wonder what Hasbro would say? Probably that Zargon doesn't like Crossbows except when they are in the hands of his minions to shoot heroes (in all caps).

A clarification after all this time I think would be nice! Somebody with twitter want to pose it to them? Then at least we could decide which half of us want to houserule it the opposite way.

[Daedalus]

I'm not sure that works, but I will need to re-read it when I'm a little less tired. I may regret this and have to go back and edit my post later...

I can understand wanting to read the text (the Instruction booklet + Armory board/Equipment card) in such a way as that our favored interpretation comes out and I think as is, it is vague.. . .

Yes, it is vague, and yes, I cobbled together an interpretation to meet a satisfying outcome. I am a Dread Rules Lawyer, after all!

The "arrow" drawing has that one anomalous arrow that doesn't follow the "exact center of the figure" "good rule of thumb.". .

. . . Maybe if they had left out that one arrow in the drawing, that would have made it more clear.. . .

I assume you're referring to the EU/NA diagram where the arrow from the Elf to the Orc on the right, second down, isn't blocked by the Wizard. The sloppy presentation of that not-centered arrow bothers me, as well. Fortunately, Avalon Hill has fixed that with circular bases and a more accurate diagram in the new Instruction Booklet.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Daedalus,

There is a whole thread elsewhere (probably many) on LOS and “seeing” which I’m warming myself up to post to, so I’ll keep in minimal on here.

Also bear in mind that I like to keep behind the curve and allow a rules version to mature for a few decades before embracing it so I’m not yet onto the shiny new HQ with round bases (stone them all!)

But, disclaimers done, I don’t see your point reading between the lines…certainly not lines of sight, in the example below

the diagonal attack of a longsword works with door-blocking but the ranged attack of a crossbow doesn't. Let me explain how to "see" it.

As you say yourself, above, the conditions for being a valid target for a ranged attack apply as long as a minimum of 50% is visible but I can still see something if it is less than 50% visible (by definition I can still see less than 50% of it) so the rules for “seeing” cannot logically be the same as the rules for being a valid target for a ranged attack.

The being a valid target for a ranged attack MUST be a subset of the wider “seeing” set.

A line passing through the centre of two diagonal squares must by definition go through the corner(s) – so the square is 50% visible - so if the two squares are diagonally adjacent then there is no intervening square for anything else to be in so if there is no wall or closed door on the line running between the squares) then how can LOS not exist?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I’ve just had the pleasure of reading this whole thread again from start to finish to try and remember what we (or possibly just I) agreed on as the conclusion, so for the sake of anyone else trying to do the same, my conclusion is outlined below.

In the base rules no monsters are armed with “reach” weapons that can attack enemies on diagonal squares or ranged weapons, but many homebrew additions do allow this, such as equipping Goblins and Skeletons with Spears or Bows, and rightly so as Zargon’s tactical combat options do need a boost.

However, the rules then become murky as it is clear what you can and can’t do if you have an enemy adjacent and what you can and can’t do to an enemy who is not adjacent i.e., at range, but which camp do diagonals fall into?

For example (examples for Crossbows and Daggers are already liberally given above)

A Hero can pass a potion, artifact, weapon, or any other item to another hero only if the two heroes are in adjacent squares and neither hero is adjacent to a monster.

I think in summary I would suggest the following;

A Hero can pass a potion, artifact, weapon, or any other item to another hero only if the two heroes are in adjacent squares and neither Hero has a monster in a surrounding square.

And with regards to ranged and thrown weapons

Ranged weapons cannot be used when you have an enemy in any one of the squares surrounding you (this includes diagonals and applies whether the intended target is in one of the surrounding squares or not).

Throwing weapons count as ranged weapons when thrown, but close combat weapons when not being thrown

Rational for above is two-fold
1) You need space-time to stow your ranged weapon and draw your close combat weapons before you get attacked
2) With an enemy in your vicinity, you can't afford to pay attention to anything other than defending, or preparing to defend yourself

[Kurgan]

Ranged (and diagonal hitting) monsters exist in quest notes (we see them in official Quest packs as well) so they are going to work the same way as the heroes even if they're much rarer than the hero.

I have been playing lately with excluding the 8 surrounding squares from crossbow (or any bow) firing ... and those are the explicit squares the Longsword can hit... and it feels right to me, so that's how I'm doing it. But at some other GM's table, if they say otherwise, I respect that.

[TheLastChaosWarrior]

When I used to play with my Dad, we house ruled that you could attack (or be attacked) through an open door via the diagonal squares in melee combat, but if using a ranged weapon (fired or thrown) you could only target the squares straight in front of you through the door.
Other wise it just got silly when Hero's all had a Crossbow!
Walk up to door and open it
Shoot and kill a monster
Next two Hero's move to the two squares adjacent to the first and take out two more baddies in the room from the diagonals.
Wiz stands by to buff the first Hero for the inevitable attacks to come.
Repeat!
But then what do I know. When we first got the game we thought once combat was started, combat just continued with attack and defence backwards and forwards until one of them was killed, all in the same turn phase!!!!
We didn't realise you attack once then your turn is over, giving EW (usually me) a chance to move his monster again to bring in another to attack!
No wonder. I struggled to make a dent on my Dad's hero's!

[CavemanLogic]

A little internet physics...

I believe the basic problem with the Crossbow Argument are the facts. How far is it from one corner of the board to the other and how high is the ceiling?

Using the miniatures and furniture to judge the scale, each square is roughly 3 feet wide, making the distance from one corner to the other, 78 feet (26 yards). Taking that and using the Gargoyle to measure the height of the ceiling (which we can't see), it's minimum of 9 feet high.

Sorry to quote an almost 13 year old reply, but drathe gives the best starting point I could find in this thread. I actually prefer five foot HeroQuest squares to drathe's three foot squares, but three foot squares is probably more accurate. And I always envision my dungeons as having somewhat claustrophobic low ceilings. So a roughly nine foot ceiling seems about right.

Now that we have the distance of 78 feet (26 yards) and the ceiling height of the corridor of 9 feet (I expect most rooms would have been carved with higher ceilings), we need to know how far a crossbow can shoot and the angle needed to make the range of 78 feet.

The average distance of a medieval crossbow is 300 yards, but distance and accuracy is two different things. Accurate shots are around 20-30 yards (40-50 for modern crossbows). Which is clearly within our needed range. Given the chance with dice rolls, this actually fits rather well. Now, what about the angle needed to achieve an accurate shot?

Now, I couldn't find any information on the angle or speed of an accurate medieval crossbow shot, but for an average modern crossbow, a bolt travels at 265 feet per second. That's just over 88 yards. Even if you half that, 44 yards (slightly less than generous given the ratio between the accuracy difference of modern and medieval crossbows), that's more than we need to make our accurate range. At 88 yards per second, we don't need to angle the crossbow much at all. I would say a crossbow in HQ should easily make the range of the HQ board given our height of 9 foot ceilings.

This website from Indiana University (http://webphysics.iupui.edu/warmup/iupui_archive/152sp99gf_3.html) tells us "a medieval crossbow could fire a heavy metal tipped arrow with an initial velocity of 150 ft/s. Such an arrow could pierce the thickest armor." Now that we have the Initial Velocity of a medieval crossbow, and the distance of the longest corridor on the HeroQuest board (between 78 feet using 3-foot squares and 130 feet for 5-foot squares), we need to calculate the angle of launch of the bolt's projectile motion to ensure it doesn't hit the ceiling. Luckily there is an online Projectile Motion Calculator to help with this task:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/projectile-motion

There are three variables we need to fill in: Initial Velocity (150 ft/s), Initial Height (let's use the Barbarian's eye level of roughly 6 feet). Now we need to calculate the Angle of Launch to make sure the bolt does not hit the ceiling. After some trial and error, I found that an angle of 5.31 degrees will give us a maximum trajectory height of 9 feet (just skimming the ceiling). The bolt will travel 1.18 seconds in the air before it lands 176 feet away. More than enough distance! Shorter Heroes, or those firing while kneeling, would be able to shoot farther due to the larger angle they could fire at without hitting the ceiling.

But... we need to be able to hit our target roughly in the chest (the shot does no good if it lands at their feet). So, let's say we are aiming at our target's chest which is roughly 1.5 feet below our eye level on a similarly sized enemy. Let's set the Initial Height at 1.5 feet (to put our target's chest at a final height of zero at the end of our shot). Our Maximum Height can then be 4.5 feet (still three feet above our Barbarian Crossbowman's eye level). At that same Angle of Launch of 5.31 degrees, our bolt will now hit our target's chest 143.4 feet away, after .96 seconds.

So, not taking accuracy into account, a slower medieval crossbow (vs the typical modern crossbow's 280-350 ft/s) can easily shoot the length of a HeroQuest corridor. And since these are trained Heroes, I'm not too worried about their accuracy. I believe "Rules as Written" works fine for crossbow distance.

Thrown weapons on the other hand...

Let's look at throwing knives. This website on "How Knife Throwing Works" (https://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/arts/circus-arts/knife-throwing2.htm) tells us that they typically leave the hand at a velocity between 26 mph and 30 mph. Let's use 30 mph (these *are* Heroes afterall), which is equivalent to 44 ft/s. Watching videos of the Reverend Dr. David Adamovich, AKA "The Great Throwdini" at (https://bigthink.com/videos/a-big-think-interview-with-david-adamovich/, it appears the knife leaves the hand just above the height of the thrower, so let's call it 6.5 feet for our Barbarian.

Going back to our Projectile Motion Calculator, we find that we can hit our target in the chest in our 9-foot ceilinged HeroQuest corridors from almost 40 feet away. The particulars... Initial Velocity: 44 ft/s, Angle of Launch: 16.75 deg, Initial Height: 2 feet (our target's chest is 2 feet below the knife's launch point just above our head). This gives us a Time of Flight: .923 seconds, Distance: 38.9 feet, and Maximum Height: 4.5 feet (the ceiling is 2.5 feet above our launch point). So, almost 8 squares (at 5 ft per HeroQuest square), or 13 squares (at 3 ft/square). A shorter 5.5 foot tall Hero could throw the knife 43.5 feet without hitting the ceiling.

But each Morcar/Zargon to their own. The biggest problems with arguments such as these are where we draw the line between fantasy and reality, and complexity and simplicity. In real life, Orcs don't exist and people can't use magic. It's a fantasy world, designed to draw us away from reality. Enjoy it.

Exactly! Physics tells us that a crossbow bolt could easily cross the entire HeroQuest board. A throwing knife on the other hand... not so much. But how to come up with workable game mechanics which allow for a decent thrown weapon range, while still *somewhat* taking into account real life physics? My initial thought was to give Heroes with thrown weapons a range of twice their current Body Points. An uninjured Barbarian could throw a knife or Handaxe 16 squares, while a Wizard could reach 8 squares away.

Monsters would get a range of 5x their current Body Points, with a hard cap of 15 squares. This allows the Goblin and Orc (the most likely candidates for thrown weapon special abilities), with their 1 BP each, to throw 5 squares. Monsters with more than 3 BP would *not* be able to throw their full distance without hitting the ceiling, so cap it at 15 squares max.

But then you are adding complexity just to handicap the weaker thrown weapons, while making no change to the more powerful crossbow (by allowing it to reach the full range of the board). Probably not good. So maybe keep it a bit simpler, and base the Hero's/Monster's thrown weapon range off of their *starting* BP instead (eliminating the need to do a max range recalculation mid-combat). I think I may like this option the best. Or else keep it *really* simple by just following the Rules as Written, and disregarding range limits altogether?

And I do like the interpretation that the crossbow can't be used when a Monster (who is not blocked by a wall) is within the Hero's eight surrounding squares? I've always been in the "adjacent = orthogonally adjacent, diagonals are fine" camp for crossbows. But I do like the "adjacent = diagonally adjacent for crossbows" interpretation presented in this thread.

Thoughts?

[Kurgan]

To misquote a famous myth buster, I reject Avalon Hill's "reality" on this one and substitute my own!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Several different "Crossbow arguments" here, but focussing on the one that ironically isn't about crossbows, then I agree that limiting throwing weapon range makes sense but that opens up two follow-up questions.

1) If you limit based on BP (starting BP) then there is a problem as heroes and monsters BPs are deliberately NOT balanced in the game (so Heroes can kill lots of monsters which is fun), how would a physically weak Wizard with virtually no weapons training be able to throw a hand axe accurately at a distance of 4 squares (or even at all, but that is a different question) but a battle hardened Orc would risk losing his toes with a measly 1 square effective range which makes it unusable, or a mighty muscle-bound Fimir with a range of two squares... Incidentally Olympic Javelin throwers aren't built like the World's Strongest Man entrants which suggests skill and technique might be more of a factor than strength alone...

2) How do thrown weapons move? In the World of HeroQuest movement does not include diagonals, so do thrown weapons count squares in the same way as characters move, you would assume so, but it feels odd...

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Zargon doesn't think heroes should be able to use their crossbows from all the way down the hall or way across the room. The Armory card says it can be used whenever a hero can see a monster, just not from an adjacent square. Does anyone have an answer that will solve this argument once and for all?

As the argument and decades roll on, I thought I would have a go at answer the OPs question, once and for all (yeah right) in light of my attempt at Polishing the Second Edition

Taking into account the abundant technical information provided on this thread this Zargon (Morcar) can safely state that he has no issue with the Crossbow having a maximum effective range of at least 25 squares and therefore being effectively unlimited within the game. Boom!

But regarding the targeting a diagonal square question...

Your opponent must be visible, as with casting a spell. There is no maximum range for firing the crossbow or throwing a weapon. However you may not use the crossbow or throw a weapon if you are adjacent to your opponent.

Also let me draw your attention to the following rule which at the moment probably seems irrelevant to this discussion (and it may indeed turn out to be irrelevant)

To attack a monster or a character, you must be in one of the four squares: to the side, front or rear. You cannot attack diagonally.

Taking the second rule as an example, you could argue that it isn't strictly speaking correct or at least it is not "the whole truth" but the way I see it is that it is an example of a rule that is correct in the limited context in which it was intended. Rules are often presented in a layered way, introducing fresh players to the basic rules, then layering complexity on top with later additions, expansions, exceptions or special conditions, either within the same rulebook, other material, future expansions and so on. So in that example above this would change once you purchase a Spear or encounter a Monster armed with a Spear and so on.

So back to the rule under discussion and I found myself asking why would that rule be included in the rulebook..."you may not use the crossbow or throw a weapon if you are adjacent to your opponent."

In reality there is no reason why I couldn't stand, with a loaded crossbow, as an opponent closed the gap with me until they were close enough to strike with their hand-to-hand weapon, and then shoot them with the crossbow. However to represent that in the simple and abstract world of HeroQuest rules opens the door to a significant amount of complexity.

If in the above example my crossbow bolt fails to kill or even hit my opponent, then he will be able to strike at me and I must defend, what am I defending with, can I use a Shield that I have in this situation, if I survive his attack, did I get the chance to reload my crossbow so can I use it for the next attack, if not then do we need stats on attacking in close combat with an unloaded crossbow, or did I fail to reload my crossbow due to be in combat, but then did I manage to stow it and draw another weapon, does it depend on the type of weapon, if I didn't have time to stow the crossbow, could I have switched it to my off-hand and drawn a shortsword, in that situation does it sort of count like as a shield...

Even if I kill my opponent with my crossbow shot, then I could get attacked by a second opponent, can I use the crossbow at point blank range on him too, did I get the chance to reload it, did I take the opportunity of the break between the two attacks to switch weapons, do we have to include some mechanism of tracking the loaded/unloaded state of a crossbow at all times...

And so on.

I think in order to avoid that complexity, and keep it simple and abstract, the designers toned down the "realism" and complexity and instead opted to keep a distance between hand-to-hand attacks and missile attacks and intended that never the twain shall meet. Hand-to-hand attacks take place when you have an opponent in an adjacent square (where missile attacks cannot be used) and missile attacks take place when you do NOT have an opponent in an adjacent square (where hand-to-hand weapons can NOT be used). This 'gap' created when either you or your opponents are moving into hand-to-hand combat range allows you to assume that you have switched to your hand-to-hand weapon array irrespective to what you may have had in your hands prior to that point.

I also think this is why the crossbow doesn't have, and doesn't need, a 'cannot be combined with shield' comment, as it was never intended that hand-to-hand combat would take place with a crossbow in hand.

So, if you accept my proposal, then this clarifies a couple of points.

1. Missile attacks happen outside of hand-to-hand combat range, so when hand-to-hand combat range is extended from adjacent to adjacent and diagonal, with the introduction of the Spear for example, then the missile attack 'prohibition' would in my opinion extend out to cover those squares also.

2. The rule as written doesn't state that you cannot attack an opponent with a missile weapon if they are in an adjacent square, it states that "you may not use the crossbow or throw a weapon if you are adjacent to your opponent", which I take that to mean that, in the expanded context, you cannot use the crossbow or any other missile weapon (or throw a throwing weapon) if you have an opponent within hand-to-hand combat range, that is adjacent or diagonal, even if the intended target of the attack is further away. This makes sense to me, the idea of being able to raise your crossbow, steady your aim, and shoot at a target six squares away is likely to be impaired by having an Orc stood behind you repeatedly bashing you over the head with an axe.

The only small fly in this otherwise perfect ointment, is when a situation occurs with a hero and a monster exchanging crossbow fire, and one or both are armed with shields, how many DD to they use, do they get the +1DD from the shield. To be honest this happens rarely enough that it isn't much of a loose end...EDIT: And I think I may have answered that one in this other thread Crossbow--2 handed or can use a shield?