Courage Spell

[lestodante]

We could only guess what the logic was behind the changes. As we sayd in previous posts, the more we are, the more different opinions we have.
The team behind the conversion from UK to US version probably liked to have similar effects caused by spells or potions but similar.
I like the idea spells are more powerful than an equivalent potion. A potion may emulate the effect of a spell but not completely.
Rock Skin may be cast on the start of the quest and could remain active for the whole quest, unless you are wounded (which may occurr at anytime).
I could cast Rock Skin on myself to prepare for the battle, make a step and fall into a pit trap losing 1 BP and Rock Skin at the same time.
You can drink a Potion of Defense just before rolling the dice to defend, but works only once.
With Courage it was probably intended to have a similar but different efefct than a potion of Strength but they worded the text a way that is still doubt after 30 years.

[Kurgan]

To me it's simple... if you want the spells to be weaker, and the same instead as Potions (as they were in the 1st EU edition) you can play it that way. To me the wording strongly implies instead that they were evolving the usage of these spells instead towards something greater, where the effects lasted longer than a single use. This makes them much more powerful of course.

But each regional version has its own strengths, weaknesses and quirks. I was shocked to learn that Avalon Bill (and presumably the rest of the design team this year) viewed Courage as expiring after a single attack (and presumably was even weaker than a Potion of Strength because it can also be cancelled if there are no monsters within LOS, even before it was used??). But he also admitted that you can play how you want to.

Don't get me wrong, I like some things in other editions that I incorporate into my NA/Remake edition games. For instance searching corridors for treasure (I think the art of the "old boot" which no longer exists on the new board was a clue they intended it from the beginning) was allowed in 1st edition, and prohibited in all other editions, but I allow it (one such search for each section of corridor). Very few players play everything exactly according to the rules as written these days so I think I'm in good company there.

I like the idea of Spells that are not just identical to the potions you find in the treasure deck, but I can also see the logic of playing it that way. Certainly it was crystal clear in the EU 2nd Edition that these spells were meant to last more than one turn, potentially (if you kept seeing monsters with courage, you could keep attacking with the extra bonus, just like if you hadn't taken damage you could still keep defending with the extra bonus with Rock Skin).

Since there exists this "controversy" and "confusion" it's probably a good idea for each Zargon/Morcar to clarify it early on, especially in a mixed group who comes from these different schools of rule thought, to keep it consistent and avoid arguments for that particular session/table.

[The Admiral]

I have, and will, always play courage as a potentially lasting spell.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

As I often say, obviously an EWP can play the game anyway that they like, but I'm interested in using the collective wisdom and experience on this site to identify issues that arise during play, hear and understand how individual EWPs have chosen to handle that, and then compare and contrast to find "a better way" to implement in my own games.

I don't see the point of having all this wisdom and experience on tap and just blindly playing my games, hitting issues and making tweaks or interpretations on the fly and then later realising that the tweak or interpretation is flawed and having to explain to my players that last time this happened it was handled one way but now we are handling it a different way...so your hero that died, wouldn't now have died under the new rules! Or yes that 2 hour quest was dull and boring, sorry you don't want to play HQ again but it turns out if I had done a little research before the game then a couple of tweaks would have made it a great session, can we get together to do it again but this time properly...

To me it's simple... if you want the spells to be weaker, and the same instead as Potions (as they were in the 1st EU edition) you can play it that way. To me the wording strongly implies instead that they were evolving the usage of these spells instead towards something greater, where the effects lasted longer than a single use. This makes them much more powerful of course.

But each regional version has its own strengths, weaknesses and quirks. I was shocked to learn that Avalon Bill (and presumably the rest of the design team this year) viewed Courage as expiring after a single attack (and presumably was even weaker than a Potion of Strength because it can also be cancelled if there are no monsters within LOS, even before it was used??). But he also admitted that you can play how you want to.

I don't agree that the (NA edition) wording "The next time that Hero attacks, he may roll two extra combat dice" strongly implies that it lasts longer than a single use, and from your quote it appears that Avalon Bill (and presumably the rest of the design team this year) don't agree either.

Don't get me wrong, I like some things in other editions that I incorporate into my NA/Remake edition games. For instance searching corridors for treasure (I think the art of the "old boot" which no longer exists on the new board was a clue they intended it from the beginning) was allowed in 1st edition, and prohibited in all other editions, but I allow it (one such search for each section of corridor). Very few players play everything exactly according to the rules as written these days so I think I'm in good company there.

Again no issue with you playing this way as a EWP, but extending searching to include corridors, increases the consumption of treasure cards, 4 searches per room (one each hero) plus on per corridor section means that your 14 "good" cards will run out after the first few rooms (and corridor sections), at that point do your players just carry on and not bother to search, what stops them from just turning round at this point when they are probably just 3 rooms in, leaving the dungeon, buying a load of equipment and then coming back in again?

How do you track which corridors (and rooms) have been searched and how many times and by which heroes?

I like the idea of Spells that are not just identical to the potions you find in the treasure deck, but I can also see the logic of playing it that way. Certainly it was crystal clear in the EU 2nd Edition that these spells were meant to last more than one turn, potentially (if you kept seeing monsters with courage, you could keep attacking with the extra bonus, just like if you hadn't taken damage you could still keep defending with the extra bonus with Rock Skin).

Have you changed the Swift Wind spell so that it is different from the Potion of Speed?

I agree that it was crystal clear in the EU 2nd Edition that these spells were meant to potentially last more than one turn, but Rock Skin also had the potential to never end, and Courage was too powerful in that almost every quest with a "boss fight" in SE ended with Wizard casting Courage on Barbarian, Barbarian killing Boss and his entourage which became repetitive and diminished the fun. If you want to stick with Courage as a potentially lasting spell then I would suggest reducing it to +1AD, consistent with Rock Skin, and making the "break conditions" clearer, do you for example have to check the seeing/LOS status of the hero "under the influence" every time the EWP moves a monster?

Since there exists this "controversy" and "confusion" it's probably a good idea for each Zargon/Morcar to clarify it early on, especially in a mixed group who comes from these different schools of rule thought, to keep it consistent and avoid arguments for that particular session/table.

Agreed, which is why I am documenting my house rules.

[Daedalus]

Like Kurgan, my group had used the extended duration for the NA Courage spell. Now that Avalon Hill has officially called the duration one turn only, I feel compelled to reconsider the OP potential of the spell. Since I still feel the AH-sanctioned duration is underpowered, I've homebrewed a new version I'd like to implement (new duration is underlined):

Courage

This spell may be cast on any
one Hero, including yourself.
The next time the Hero attacks,
he may roll two extra combat dice.
As long as the Hero scores an
unblocked hit in combat, he may
attack this way on his future turns.
The spell ends when the Hero fails
to damage a monster on his turn.

The spell can end early not only with a miss, but also a one-turn interruption. Maybe the Hero cannot move to a monster, or perhaps a boss casts Tempest on him. A fun counter would be to cast Fear onto the Hero, reducing his attack to one Combat Die. Probably sooner rather than later, the Hero's feeble efforts will miss, extinguishing the fire in his belly. Har-har!

[wallydubbs]

I have to disagree with Avalon Hill's contention as they are not the originators of this spell. Of course the original was for 1 turn, but it changed to stick holding duration.

There are other spells that last longer then 1 turn such as Rock Skin, Sleep, Double Image, Disappear and Slow; it doesn't harm anything by granting Courage duration. I for one will keep using Courage until there are no more monsters in line of sight.

[Kurgan]

There are also at least one potion that mimics the wording of Courage. Granted, that doesn't mean changing Courage to work one way means changing them too, but I would tend to treat them all the same. As long as you can see a monster, it continues.

I like the way the Monk's style check occurs at the beginning of his turn. I'd interpret Courage that way, being even more generous than the 1990 wording. So Zargon can't douse the spell just by moving a monster around a corner, then back into view... and the hero can clear the room, then use his movement to run into another room with more monsters to keep the spell going.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

This is interesting, I have always felt in my gut that Courage (and Rock Skin) would be better as spells with a duration but have never been able to pin down a mechanism to extend them that isn't either too complex (like checking LOS to every monster at every point on every turn) or overpowered (cast on Barbarian and sit back as he hacks his way through all the occupants of the quest room - yet again) or open-ended (like the current Rock Skin that potentially lasts from quest to quest and accumulates, so the rule I use for both is effectively the First/Original Edition [FE] as that was at least simple and clear.

Courage

This spell may be cast on any
one Hero, including yourself.
The next time the Hero attacks,
he may roll two extra combat dice.
As long as the Hero scores an
unblocked hit in combat, he may
attack this way on his future turns.
The spell ends when the Hero fails
to damage a monster on his turn.

The spell can end early not only with a miss, but also a one-turn interruption. Maybe the Hero cannot move to a monster, or perhaps a boss casts Tempest on him. A fun counter would be to cast Fear onto the Hero, reducing his attack to one Combat Die. Probably sooner rather than later, the Hero's feeble efforts will miss, extinguishing the fire in his belly. Har-har!

I'm now considering adopting something along these lines for both Courage and Rock Skin so that they both give you an extra combat dice in attack or defence (respectively) and last until you have a turn in which you fail to inflict a loss of at least (for Courage) or block and prevent the loss of any (for Rock Skin). Just one question, when do they kick in, if the Wizard casts Courage on another hero, I assume that hero must inflict a loss of on and from his next turn onwards, or the spell ends, but what if the Wizard casts it on himself, he is unlikely to be able to inflict a loss on that same turn, so would it take effect on their next turn (and potentially end on their next turn). And for Rock Skin would it count from the first EWP turn after casting and end at that point if a was lost or they weren't attacked, or perhaps they must have blocked an attack completely by their next turn.

Thinking about this more, whilst I reduced the combat dice in attack from 2 to 1 as two feels too overpowered in my opinion, that may not be the case for Rock Skin, blocking an entire attack is harder than causing one BP so perhaps either 2 combat dice or blocking at least 1 would be better for Rock Skin...?

[SirRick]

I still can't find the fraggling gargoyle!

I still don’t know how it works. I don’t even know how I got my Chaos Warlock.

[The Admiral]

I still can't find the fraggling gargoyle!

I still don’t know how it works. I don’t even know how I got my Chaos Warlock.

I don't even think the chaos warrior is even out there anymore.