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Borin's Armor clarification

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from HeroQuest Game Systems.

Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby HispaZargon » Sunday December 25th, 2022 10:38pm

Daedalus wrote:
wallydubbs wrote:. . . Quest 7 may not seem very early in the quest book, but considering artifacts only start appearing in Quest 5, it does seem questionable why this really valuable artifact would be the third one attained.

Most artifacts in the Game System are thematically connected to their respective quests:
The Talisman of Lore, Elixir of Life and Spirit Blade are the objectives of Quest 5, 9 and 13.
The 4 Wizard Artifacts (Wizard's Cloak, Wand of Magic, Wizard's Cloak and the Spell Ring) all appear in quests where the heroes face an evil sorcerer (Grak, Balur & The Witch Lord).
The Ring of Return is found in the Castle of Mystery to give the heroes an alternative exit.
This only leaves Borin's Armor and Orc's Bane to cover Quests 7 and 11. There are no Orcs in Quest 7, so it seems likely that this was the only possible option for Borin's Armor.

Personally Orc's Bane seems lower tier compared to Borin's armor and should be available sooner.

In my opinion Orc's Bane is a preferable reward for beating Grak. The Wizard's Cloak could be taken from Wardoz in Quest 7 and Borin's Armor would be great reward for the Gargoyle guarded chest in Bastion of Choas.

As an NA player, I like your thematic solution that rebalances the order of inclusion for Orcsbane and Borin's Armor..

I guess I never said it, but I also like a lot this idea. I think those changes in artifacts appearances order would be very good fixes for Game System's quest book.

For me makes more sense seeing the Wizard taking the cloak from another Wizard like Wardoz, instead from an Orc Shaman. Borin's Armour will be find mostly at the end of the quest book, better because it is the most powerful artifact in GS, and Orc's Bane will be found earlier since it is a weaker artifact.

The only weird point for me is seeing an orc-killer weapon in the hands of an orc... but Ok, could be, why not? Maybe the Orc's Bane power is not effective if wielded by an Orc and it is like any other short sword in such situation? Or maybe owning it by an Orc ensures the sword will not fall in the enemy hands? Who knows...


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby wallydubbs » Sunday December 25th, 2022 11:45pm

HispaZargon wrote:The only weird point for me is seeing an orc-killer weapon in the hands of an orc... but Ok, could be, why not? Maybe the Orc's Bane power is not effective if wielded by an Orc and it is like any other short sword in such situation? Or maybe owning it by an Orc ensures the sword will not fall in the enemy hands? Who knows...


Yes, this was my thinking: better off on their hands then the hands of an enemy. Perhaps I have a more cruel outlook on Orcs due to the writings of Tolkien. But I view orcs fighting amongst themselves would be common, so killing eachother with a weapon designed for that doesn't sound too unthinkable.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby HispaZargon » Monday December 26th, 2022 7:40am

Yeah. I am currently playing a GS campaign trying the effectiveness of very simple homebrew fixes like this, so I will play considering these artifact place changes. We will see how it works, but I guess will be a good experience, next quest will be Quest #5, the reason I looked for your old post about this topic before playing it :-)


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby wallydubbs » Monday December 26th, 2022 11:16pm

HispaZargon wrote:Yeah. I am currently playing a GS campaign trying the effectiveness of very simple homebrew fixes like this, so I will play considering these artifact place changes. We will see how it works, but I guess will be a good experience, next quest will be Quest #5, the reason I looked for your old post about this topic before playing it :-)


It's probably stupid, but another HomeBrew "fix" I've included in my game stem from an extended treasure deck. Thanks to this website I've been able to upgrade the treasure deck, which adds a bit more flavor to the game. Where Wizard's of Morcar offers a Potion of Magical Aptitude, which is essentially nullified by the Wand of Magic, I disregard this as an artifact in Quest 8 and bring in the Ring of Fire from Keller's Keep early. Just so the heroes could get enough use of the Potion of Magical Aptitude, I add the Wand of Magic as a reward in the Wizard's of Zargon quest pack, so I could get rid of that potion and add the 300 gold Treasure Horde to the deck.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Monday January 2nd, 2023 7:23am

I agree with HispaZargon, I can't see the Orcrist / Glamdring inspired Orcs' Bane being wielded by an Orc or Goblin as the weapon invokes serious fear in them, personally I think it sits well in the hands of a Chaos Warrior whom I have no doubt would see the fear-inspired by it in Orcs and Goblins to be a useful asset.

But for me replacing Borin's Armour with Borin's Amulet, takes away the OP nature of Borin's Armour (and the Gold saving for the Heroes, and all the confusion around the item) and removes the need to relocate it.

I have renamed a few artefacts as the US Edition names for me were a step in the wrong direction compared to UK Edition names (more details below) but this means that the Wizard's Cloak now Cloak of Protection doesn't seem out of place for Q6 but I wouldn't be opposed to switching that artefact and Borin's Amulet from Q7 around.

Renames
Wizard's Cloak -> Cloak of Protection (+1DD can be worn by any Hero but doesn't work in conjunction with other armour - Chainmail/Plate Mail/Shield/Helmet)
Wizard's Staff -> Ancient Staff (same stats but no Wizard only restriction - stats are the same as my Spear ported from UK edition so the Wizard will end up with the staff anyway as everyone else can just buy the Spear)
Borin's Armour -> Borin's Amulet
Spell Ring -> Ring of Recall
Wand of Magic -> Wand of Concurrence
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby HispaZargon » Monday January 2nd, 2023 7:56am

In my current GS campaign, the Heroes already played Q6 and, as I introduced above, I gave them Orc's Bane after defeating Grak. However, something wrong arised: both the Barbarian and the Dwarf started the quest owning a Broadsword, and the Elf owning a Long Sword... so the three fighting heroes already rolled 3 dice for attacking. Then, once they gained the Orc's Bane was quite dissapointing because they already had enough powerful weapons, better than the Orc's Bane in most of the situations.

Then, we see again that the Orc's Bane will not have any relevant role in the game, so I think it should be gained even earlier than Q6 to give this artifact a sense.

One option I see could be introducing the sword inside the empty treasure chest in the small room from Q3, the one guarded by Ulag. It could make sense the sword would be hidden there, as a dangerous artifact for orcs, etc. But again, seeing the sword in the hands of an orc could be rare, so.... what about giving the sword to Gulthor at the end of Q4? Gulthor is a renamed Chaos Warrior, so I think fits quite well giving him the magical sword, moreover, the original book already says the sword is in the hands of a Chaos Warrior, so again, I think could thematically fit well.

Then, here is my proposal now about the artifacts location changes:

    Q4: Orc's Bane, wielded by Gulthor.
    Q6: No artifact.
    Q7: Wizard's Cloak worn by Wardoz.
    Q11: Borin's Armor inside the treasure chest marked B.

Giving the Orc's Bane in Q4 will have the opportunity of using it more by the heroes, especially during Q6, the lair of Grak.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Monday January 2nd, 2023 9:52am

Q4: Orc's Bane, wielded by Gulthor, does make sense but won't that risk making the Orc-orientated Quests that follow too easy? I guess playtesting may determine that but for me a better option for keeping Orc's Bane relevant is to allow the Wizard to use a shortsword!

As for Borin's Armour, I don't consider it to be OP as such, after all it is just an existing item, Plate Mail, and the added bonus of the artefact version is that it removes the associated movement penalty*, the problem is more that it is the most expensive item in the game at 850GC (effectively 1100GC as you are giving it away to a Hero that probably hasn't even purchased Chainmail by that point so never will need to) and it is being given away early on and therefore negatively impacts on the advancement system.

My suggestion would be to swap it out for a later Quest as others have said, but for me personally anywhere in the GS is too early, I would only want to give this away, but still preserve the game balance, at a point when I was sure that the Heroes will already have purchased Plate Mail (or decided to stick with Chainmail to avoid the movement penalty), so I would go a step further and propose swapping the placement of Borin's Armour in the GS with the Rabbit Boots in ROTWL.

Not only does Borin's Armour seem a more fitting reward for defeating Skullmar (and I can picture him wearing Borin's Armour more easily than a pair of Ugg Boots) but the Rabbit Boots which lets face it are a 'light', possibly even comical artefact I think fit better in the GS than in ROTWL if you consider the tolkeinesque darkening of the tone of the Quest Packs as you progress.

*In HeroQuest Gold - the movement penalty for Plate Mail has been replaced with a penalty on Jump and Hang tests
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HQ Golden Rules Rule Fixes based on Original 1989 HeroQuest.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday January 3rd, 2023 12:06am

Humans wield weapons that are good at killing other humans (as opposed to hunting implements meant to kill animals for food, let's say, or "less than lethal" weapons meant for civil enforcement or training), so I don't see the big deal with a situation like that.

I just figured Orc's bane was magically good at killing Orcs, nothing more, nothing less. Why would a bad guy need it? Perhaps to maintain control over his troops (if they step out of line, guess what?), and if nothing else, at least it's not in the hands of the enemy if they have it! Even without it's magical anti-Orc properties, it's still a trusty weapon! If you need a reason why it shouldn't be able to used by a monster type character, feel free...


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