Q3: Lair of the Orc Warlord: NA vs EU differences

[Kurgan]

1st Edition says (regarding treasure ("room or passage" which I take to be an explicit intention that you can search for treasure there; and while it's not final proof this was intended, it's also allowed in the PC game that was most based on this edition).

Hmm.. was I that thick that I just assumed the "one search per room for treasure" carried over from 1st to 2nd edition rules??? I guess nothing can be taken for granted. I must have made some hybrid version in my mind after all and defaulted to that rather than reading what it actually said (and didn't say). And yet looking back I found myself arguing that it was only one search for treasure in these versions because the quest notes say "If a player searches for treasure..." rather than "The first hero who searches for treasure..." as in the NA/remake wording.

So where did I find that searches were limited? I swore I read that, even if it wasn't in the rules of play explicitly.


The 2nd Ed. Instructions don't seem to limit searches, so I guess in that version you really can exhaust the treasure deck (or be reasonably certain you will) in every quest, then.

In the Japanese edition you can heal (with the beginner spell first aid and then healing spell you get with intermediate magic) as many times as you want in a quest, and the treasure cards are never depleted in 1st edition, so I guess it's not far fetched to imagine unlimited treasure searches (with limited cards) in another ruleset.

[dragon5145]

This is an interested errata between the two version, however interestingly they would play mechanically the same for each version. In the EU version a search for traps disables furniture/chest traps so a subsequent treasure search has nothing to trigger and you would get what is in the chest. In NA version without a trap search the implied movement of a treasure search would trigger the pit trap just like it would a trapped chest, with a trap search it can easily be assumed that a subsequent treasure search would avoid suspicious squares whenever possible.

When it comes to the number treasure searches per room, I have no problem neccesarily with the idea of one search per room however I do not think this is the only viable interpretation of the EU rules. Granted my understanding comes from the scans of the rules of play for 1st and 2nd edition found here on the inn. In both when it comes to a treasure search both start with "if a hero" searches, the rest talks about "the hero" that performed said either getting a specific noted treasure or drawing a random treasure card. Nothing I have read in the scans seems specifically limit it to only one hero being able to search for treasure, as all four could potentially qualify for the "if a hero" start. This makes it in my opinion more of a EWP's preferred interpretation than a hard codified rule, either of which is perfectly acceptable for the particular group playing. Now if this rule was more explicitly explained in later EU expansions or errata or past rule clarifications from Milton Bradley back in the day, then let those stand. My thoughts were entirely based on the two scans I've read.

Edit: The problem with exhausting the treasure deck seems to only be a problem for 2nd edition and NA, which might explain why the concept of one search per room for 2nd edition became popular while not explicitly stated. On that thought the fact that cards were returned to the treasure deck immediately or after use in the case of potions seems to lean in favor of multiple hero treasure searches in 1st edition, though strange no reshuffling required in said edition.

[Kurgan]

This would be a great thing to ask Stephen Baker next time he's up for an interview (unless Doug Hopkins knows, having access to whatever notes from back in the day perhaps). It could be that they didn't intend unlimited searches, but it was left in as a loophole. Then again, the consistent lack of that text on so many of the cards makes me think perhaps it was really intended. I could go back and forth on it. But in any case they later decided to change it, along with a bunch of other things. And Mike Gray's team in the US changed it further. Part of me likes to think of the Treasure deck as a seemingly limitless well of randomness... but also the idea that the Heroes see the threat growing and search just enough then stop also has some appeal. That they might have to start searching again to find something they really need, after over farming it early... and having to gamble on their safety with it, is also kind of cool.

Regarding the searching then finding thing with treasure and traps...

If you search for traps, and find that the furniture is trapped... but you want the treasure and lack the ability to disarm it.. you could just take the hit and hope for the best. Sometimes you need what's in it to complete the quest. Most furniture traps are automatic damage (1-2 BPs most often), but sometimes you get something else.

The worst is when it's a trap and NOTHING else!

So I can see the value in finding a trap but not necessarily trying to remove it immediately. Treasure found can also be transferred from one hero to another if they choose easily enough.

[dragon5145]

Yeah that's the beauty of it you can take the hit if furniture is trapped if you want, but only in NA and maybe JPN editions since the search disables trapped furniture in EU editions. The NA edition rules requiring trapped furniture to be disarmed as an action is an improvement in my opinion if for nothing else it incentivizes heroes to buy trap kits, especially if they tend to split up during quests so they have options. I pointed out that the room in question in LAIR plays mechanically pretty much the same is that possibly the only real errata between the versions could be the lack of treasure note for the chest, and the trap placement in that room is cosmetic more than anything else.

Can someone tell me where in the EU editions it says you have to be adjacent to chest/furniture to search them. I haven't noticed such a rule in the base rule books ( may have missed it) and am curious as to if it was introduced in one of the expansions or ADK.

[Kurgan]

Can someone tell me where in the EU editions it says you have to be adjacent to chest/furniture to search them. I haven't noticed such a rule in the base rule books ( may have missed it) and am curious as to if it was introduced in one of the expansions or ADK.

You can get an interesting discussion of it here. My current position is that it's not actually been the rule, but I can see where one could draw it out from the way in which things are worded in EU 2nd editions version of "The Trial." It specifically says that no cards are used except the Monster deck... and it uses wording like "look inside the chest." This has caused some players to conclude that treasure chests are "opened just like doors."

My conclusion is that whatever they intended for The Trial should be viewed as a kind of quest specific rule (rather than a general rule). Yes, it's the first one, and you could imagine that the rules build from quest to quest as the players experience them in order. Of course that was written back in 1990, but modern Avalon Hill HeroQuest the idea is that the general rules are in the rulebook, and the quest (or expansion) specific rules are in the questbook notes.

I see "The Trial" in 2nd Edition as a special case, similar to the (much later, but also by Stephen Baker though now working with the remake's edition which follows Mike Gray's US rules) "Rogar's Hall" where there are special rules in it that appear nowhere else (in that case, Mentor bringing dead heroes back to life with healing potions from the treasure deck automatically) and is intended as "first" quest (I think it works better as a special challenge, but I'm getting off track!). The latest First Light (also by Baker) puts some rules in the questbook (pack specific) that don't appear in the general rulebook. So at least the modern game tries to sort through these issues a little better, but back in the day, the designers might not have felt such distinctions or precision was necessary without three decades of debates and fan interpretations!

HispaZargon's thread gives a little different perspective from Stephen Baker himself:

Rules and the HeroQuest community

ReV: First, a couple of technical questions related to the game rules, which have originated long discussions in famous HQ forums like Ye Olde Inn. Is it mandatory for a Hero to be next to a treasure chest to open it, or is it enough to search for it within the room where the treasure chest is located?

SB: When you search for treasure you search the whole room. This will trigger a Morcar/Zargon note related to what may be in a chest or a trap associated with it. I know some players differentiate between Search the Room versus Search a Chest, which requires that you are adjacent.

A very diplomatic answer. I was expecting him to say maybe he did intend the chest search as a separate but it was changed, instead he confirms it but admits that "some" players choose another way, without saying they're wrong or one way is better.

Of course sometimes when he talks about the game, he is speaking about the modern refinement of the rules (which are based on the NA Edition that Mike Gray worked on and Stephen Baker was not involved in, apart from some early discussions with his US counterpart) vs what it was like back in the day. The fact that he references Morcar however, seems to indicate he remembers the difference. One could always try to argue he might not have remembered everything perfectly (though he would also have access to his old notes, if they're still readable, right?) and questions like these are vetted for interviews too. This was a written interview rather than something off the cuff, so he would have had the chance to research it, but of course, human memory isn't perfect especially after so much time (did he reference his own notes?). At one time I was going to interview him myself, but my questions had to be vetted by Avalon Hill first and most of them got nixed (thankfully I was able to piggy back on other interviews later, and most of my questions that Baker was able to answer, got answered, for which I'm grateful!). So I wouldn't expect him to say something wildly inaccurate in these modern interviews, even though you could say he was much closer to the action in the old interviews after he left Hasbro BUT at the very least someone is moderating and checking (in theory; hopefully they're being thorough and honest too) vs. back then it was reliant upon his memory of his old job (and to be fair, any notes he was allowed to save).

Are there any other sources? Walking up to chests to get the treasure is definitely in the Japanese edition. Of course many interesting things in that one (including crossbows not being able to hit the 8 surrounding squares close to the firing character).

Miming walking up to the chest to search it has a certain play logic to it. The draft notes of Mike Gray's team (working on the four hero themed expansions for the US c.1992) considered making furniture a separate search from the rest of the room (a trace of this can be found in MOTM Quest 1's final treasure note) but like so many other things was scrubbed (or missed) in the final published version. I think it's perfectly plausible it was an inference by some young players of the 2nd edition, which became a house rule confused as the official way, similar to the "one treasure search allowed per room" idea. Like you, I'd like to know as close as we can, what the designers originally intended, regardless of how it ended up being changed or how people ended up preferring to play it... even though at the end of the day, we all tailor the game to the way we think is best, to some degree or other (and that's not a bad thing).

As always, I too am curious to see if someone finds some other bit of info that blows my theories out of the water and makes me rethink the Treasure chest or any other aspect of the rules long debated.

[dragon5145]

Thanks for the response Kurgan, that clears some of my doubts on if I missed something. I haven't read my NA the trial in a while so I may go back and look at its wording, as for the 2nd edition scan I have so far when looking through it I've focused on something else and largely ignored the quest note. I agree that rule changes or expansions in quest notes on specific quest should be considered quest specific, any changes that should apply to the general rules would be better placed in a foreword or afterword of a quest book similar to the way some things are done in the modern remake. Separating the chest search from the general room search could result in some interesting or comical result if you still draw from the standard treasure deck if no specific treasure. Say for instance disarming a trapped chest and then drawing an arrow or crossbow hazard, was it double trapped ha. And think of a orc jumping out like a Jack in the box.

[Kurgan]

I bet you that the "Trap!" cards were changed in the NA edition to "Hazard!" specifically to counter that natural complaint "But I searched for Traps and you said there weren't any!"

Of course in the expansions we then got the concept of "undetectable traps" that you can't search for, or disarm, so oh well. "So well hidden that they can't be discovered by searching." I guess we could imagine the Hazards/Treasure Traps are of this sort too.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I think we have strayed somewhat from the topic of differences between the various versions of the Lair of the Orc Warlord quest and into differences between the various versions of the rules … so I’ll try and summarise on each point briefly (something that I struggle with!) and at the same time redirect the conversation to the relevant topics

1. Search Treasure Room and/or Passage
The main topic (although there are many others) is Removing Falling Block Traps

The 1st edition allows searches for treasure and searches for trap and secret doors in both rooms and passages, and I’m pretty sure everyone agrees on that point at least as it is clearly stated in various places within the rulebook.

The picture becomes less clear in the 2nd edition. If you were introduced to HQ via the 2nd edition, it is half-baked in this respect, whilst there are places where you would expect the search for treasure rules to state room or passage but they only state room, but there are other places in the rules that seem to assume a search for treasure in a passage, so it is understandable that there is confusion and different interpretations.

If however you played 1st edition and then 2nd edition by comparing the two side by side you can see that most, but not all, of the references to searching for treasure in passages have been removed, it is my opinion that the designers intended to remove the search for treasure in passages from the 2nd edition but just didn’t do a very thorough job. This is why I take the “spirit of the law”, the intention, and play 2nd edition without the search for treasure in passages.

2. Number of Searches per Area
The main topic (although there are many others) is Removing Falling Block Traps

Again, starting with the 1st edition, there is nothing in the rulebook that specifies that you can only search an area once for traps and secret doors and once for treasure.

However, searching an area for traps and secret doors finds all the traps and secret doors in that area, so repeating this search would be pointless as there is nothing else to find. Due to this, whilst the rulebook doesn’t say that you can’t, and for that matter the rule book doesn’t state that you can’t perform cartwheels with your character each time they move a square, I think it is fair to assume both types of behaviour are unnecessary, draw out the time taken to play the game and should not be encouraged.

When it comes to searching an area for treasure, the rules state that if a Quest note exists that specifies the treasure e.g. a Spear card, then you should give that to the searcher. If you were to allow an area to be searched for treasure more than once, the rulebook also doesn’t state that this is allowed, then you wouldn’t be able to give that same card to the subsequent searcher as the card is unique and has already been handed out, so you would be unable to follow the instructions given. At this point you would have to deviate from the stated rules and homebrew, either deciding that the second searcher gets nothing (which would be consistent with any second attempt to search the same are of secret doors and traps – not be encouraged) or that the second searcher gets to draw a treasure card. If you go with that second option then, in the 1st edition, it creates the opportunity to exploit the rules so that in the first room only, the heroes could repeatedly search the room for treasure until they have drawn all the “good” cards from the deck before proceeding with the adventure and never having to search for treasure again.

Neither of these two outcomes appeal to me, one is pointless and the other has the potential to ruin the game, which is why, in my opinion, I assume that the intended way of playing is the one that is simple, consistent (between the two search types), doesn’t waste time and doesn’t have the potential to ruin the game, in that searching an area for traps and secret doors find all the traps and secret doors in the area and cannot be repeated, and that the searching an area for treasure finds all the treasure in the area and cannot be repeated.

Note: In neither 1st nor 2nd edition can you actually exhaust the treasure deck, even if you allow unlimited searches for treasure in a single area, because in both cases some of the treasure cards are returned to the deck, but you could remove all the “good” cards.

Note: The 1st edition only mentions shuffling the treasure cards once at the start of the game, because as you can only search for treasure once in each area, and the number of areas in a quest is less than the number of cards in the deck, you will never get far enough through the deck to reach the cards that have been returned to the bottom, so there is no need to shuffle again as you will always be drawing from a shuffled deck. Obviously if you do allow unlimited searches then this method breaks down, which is yet another reason to assume this is not the intended interpretation.

3. Handling Chests

The main topic (although there are many others) is Chests? How do they work?

The instruction to handle chests by “opening” them (and “looking” in them) is found in several places mainly in the Quest book rather than in the rule book, although there is one reference in the 1st edition rulebook, and the rules for “opening” and “looking” are also found in the rulebook.

Traps are triggered whenever a character moves onto a trapped square or opens a trapped chest without searching

The italics are mine, but this indicates that a chest needs to be opened, and the only instructions on how “opening” works are also in the rulebook

You can open a door by moving onto the square in front of it. You do not have to open a door if you do not want to. Opening a door does not count as a move. Having opened a door, you can keep moving, if you have any spaces left to move

I appreciate, as some have pointed out, that this quote is describing opening in the context of doors but as the rules and quests make it clear that chests need to be opened and there is no other reference to how opening works in the rulebook, so either you assume it is the same as doors or you accept that chests need to be opened but that no explanation is given anywhere in the rules as to how you are supposed to handle that.

For those that don’t accept this interpretation I would ask that they explain to me where in the rules it tells you how else to handle chests, especially considering The Trial in the 2nd edition and the example of a chest in a passage in a couple of later quests.