Borin's Armor clarification

[SpacemanR]

I admit that I didn't scroll through the entire eleven pages, but I see that the armor DOES provide a benefit over the standard equipment available, even if only read as a total of 4 on defense, and no combining with the Shield or Helmet

Borin's Armor allows a hero to A) have four dice in defense, B) move at their regular speed, C) have both hands free, and D) be wearing nothing on their head.


Let us look at some alternatives using standard equipment:

1) Helmet + Shield doesn't give you C or D
2) Plate Mail doesn't give you B
3) Plate Mail + Shield gives you 5 defense, but doesn't give you B or C
4) Plate Mail + Shield + Helmet gives you 6 defense, but doesn't give you B, C, or D
5) Plate Mail + Helmet gives you 5 defense, but doesn't give you B or D
6) Chain Mail only gives you 3 defense
7) Chain Mail + Shield doesn't give you C
8) Chain Mail + Shield + Helmet gives you 5 defense, but doesn't give you C or D
9) Chain Mail + Helmet doesn't give you D
10) Helmet only gives 3 defense and doesn't give you D
11) Shield only gives you 3 defense and doesn't give you C


So even ignoring that it might give you valuable armor that you cannot afford at a certain point in time, it also gives you a particular combination that YOU CANNOT PURCHASE.

[wallydubbs]

Borin's Armor is Plate Mail without the movement penalty. You may use a shield and/or helmet with it. The same rules apply to Borin's Armor as it does Plate Mail, only without the movement penalty. That's the only difference.

[SpacemanR]

Borin's Armor is Plate Mail without the movement penalty. You may use a shield and/or helmet with it. The same rules apply to Borin's Armor as it does Plate Mail, only without the movement penalty. That's the only difference.

That is the NEW Borin's Armor. The ORIGINAL wasn't written to be compatible with shield and/or helmet (thought I agree that even then, it would be perfectly reasonable to play it that way).

[wallydubbs]

Borin's Armor is Plate Mail without the movement penalty. You may use a shield and/or helmet with it. The same rules apply to Borin's Armor as it does Plate Mail, only without the movement penalty. That's the only difference.

That is the NEW Borin's Armor. The ORIGINAL wasn't written to be compatible with shield and/or helmet (thought I agree that even then, it would be perfectly reasonable to play it that way).

Does it say "cannot be combined with a helmet or shield?" I don't think the original even specified that it can't be worn by the Wizard.

[SpacemanR]

Borin's Armor is Plate Mail without the movement penalty. You may use a shield and/or helmet with it. The same rules apply to Borin's Armor as it does Plate Mail, only without the movement penalty. That's the only difference.

That is the NEW Borin's Armor. The ORIGINAL wasn't written to be compatible with shield and/or helmet (thought I agree that even then, it would be perfectly reasonable to play it that way).

Does it say "cannot be combined with a helmet or shield?" I don't think the original even specified that it can't be worn by the Wizard.

Comes down to relevant version. The original English version allowed it to be combined and allowed it to be worn by the Wizard.

In the original NA version, armor that CAN be combined with a helmet or shield specifically state "May be combined with the Helmet and/or Shield"...Borin's does not include that, and it also specifically excludes the Wizard.

My point is that even THAT version of Borin's Armor technically offers something that cannot be achieved by a combination of purchasable equipment.

[Kurgan]

As I see it, nothing officially ever said that Borin's Armor prevented combinations with other types of "armor" (helmet, shield), this was merely fan speculation based on the ARTWORK that showed a helmet with it.

Avalon Hill today clarified that it can be used with a helmet. Okay, you can argue that only applies to the modern game, and not rulesets from '89-93, but...

I guess you could compare this with the artwork that doesn't always show you WYSIWYG... Chainmail appears to be worn by the Wizard in the original Equipment artwork but he can't wear it under any of the official rulesets of the day.

You can of course always play the game how you want to play it, regardless of what the evidence shows about the intention of the designers.

[SpacemanR]

As I see it, nothing officially ever said that Borin's Armor prevented combinations with other types of "armor" (helmet, shield), this was merely fan speculation based on the ARTWORK that showed a helmet with it.

No, it was due to the card not stating that it could be combined with helmet and/or shield, while the Plate Mail and Chain Mail said explicitly "May be combined with the Helmet and/or Shield."

[SirRick]

As I see it, nothing officially ever said that Borin's Armor prevented combinations with other types of "armor" (helmet, shield), this was merely fan speculation based on the ARTWORK that showed a helmet with it.

No, it was due to the card not stating that it could be combined with helmet and/or shield, while the Plate Mail and Chain Mail said explicitly "May be combined with the Helmet and/or Shield."

None of the armor cards posted on this site for the UK version mention any of the armor being able to be combined with any other armor. So by that logic, none of the armor can be combined at all. We know its just not the case. I’m not sure how many variations of the equipment cards there were between the two UK versions, but I’m sure any added text was meant to try and clarify the original intention of the designers.

[Kurgan]

As I see it, nothing officially ever said that Borin's Armor prevented combinations with other types of "armor" (helmet, shield), this was merely fan speculation based on the ARTWORK that showed a helmet with it.

No, it was due to the card not stating that it could be combined with helmet and/or shield, while the Plate Mail and Chain Mail said explicitly "May be combined with the Helmet and/or Shield."

It's true in the NA Armory, the armors said they could be combined with helmet and/or shield. Borin's Armor on the card didn't say one way or the other, but it is described as plate mail. In the EU editions it doesn't mention any combinations with the armors. The two body armors just say it gives you 3 or 4 defend dice, while the other forms of armor say they give an extra defend die. Only three Equipment cards changed mechanics between the two EU editions.

Some will say if the rules don't say something, then you can't do it, while others would say if it doesn't say you can't, then you can. Of course that game logic doesn't always apply... (see the clarification on targeting and even PASSING THROUGH through furniture in First Light!).

But yeah, I would say Borin's Armor was only ever intended to be magical plate mail that doesn't slow you down (though it doesn't say the Wizard can't use it in the EU editions... which goes along with a Warhammer Fantasy trope of the time where Wizards couldn't use metal armor... unless it was magical).

[wallydubbs]

Hell in the original 1989 European version there was no Wizard's Cloak, but merely a Cloak of Protection. Who knows, perhaps Borin's Armor could be worn by the Wizard, negating the helmet/shield concept. The Armor is "ultralight", whore most armor is too heavy for a Wizard.