Inconsistent Spell Break Mechanism for "Mind Attack Spells"

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Some examples from Second Edition

Sleep
This spell will put one monster or player to sleep. He may try to defend himself by rolling one die per Mind point. If he rolls a shield he is unaffected. Once asleep he may not defend if attacked. He will awake if he rolls a six at the start of his turn, or if attacked.

This uses a mechanism of rolling one combat die per Mind point (but doesn't specify whether this is current or starting), rolling a shield (doesn't specify white, black or either), but unstated assumption may be white for heroes and black for monsters as per usual combat rules

Arrows of the Night
You may fire these magical bolts at any target within your line of sight. You may then attack the target with two attack dice and he must defend with as many dice as he has Mind points. Discard after use.

This uses a mechanism of rolling one combat die per Mind point (but doesn't specify whether this is current or starting), rolling a shield (doesn't specify white, black or either) so same as Sleep probably.

Mind Lock
This spell allows a servant of Chaos to freeze a hero’s mind and prevent him from taking any action. The Chaos Sorcerer makes a Mind Attack against his target by rolling a number of combat dice equal to his Mind points. His target defends with as many combat dice as he has Mind points. The defender is frozen for one turn for each skull scored by the attacker. If no skulls are scored against the target, the spell has no effect. A Mind Locked character places one Mind Lock token on his character board for each turn he is affected, removing one for each of his turns. Having removed a token, a frozen character may attempt to break the Chaos Sorcerer’s hold by rolling one combat die for each Mind point. If he manages to roll three skulls or more, he may remove all remaining Mind Lock tokens on his character board. A frozen character may not move, attack or perform any other action, but he may defend against other attacks using only one defend die.

This uses basically the same combat mechanism as physical combat for mind combat, which is neat, although it doesn’t specify whether this is current or starting Mind Points, or which type of shield blocks a skull, presumably White for Heroes and Black for Monsters (as per physical combat), so far so good, but then it confuses matters by introducing a secondary break mechanism (which again doesn’t specify current or starting Mind points) that works in a similar way to the one for Sleep, but needs three or more skulls rather than shields, so effectively this simultaneously introduces two new mind break mechanisms (or one new one and a variant of an existing one)!

This spell also has a second oddity in that it uses the Mind Lock tokens to track the duration of the spell, which is fine, but the appropriate Quest book “Against the Ogre Horde” states that certain spell casters are issued with a number of tokens for each spell, including Mind Lock which control how many times they can cast the same spell. This is doubly inconsistent as the tokens appear to have two different uses during the same spell and breaches the HeroQuest (and Vancian magic) principle of spells being one-off.

Dominate
This spell allows a Chaos Sorcerer to take control of a hero for a turn. The Chaos Sorcerer must attack his target by rolling a number of combat dice equal to his Mind points while the defender does the same to defend himself. The Chaos Sorcerer must score at least two skulls in his Mind Attack. If he is successful, the Chaos Sorcerer places a Dominate counter on the character’s board and may move that character immediately. He may move, cast spells and fight with the character as normal and may attack the other players with him. A character is only Dominated for the duration of the Chaos Sorcerer’s turn. If the attack is unsuccessful, nothing happens.

This mechanism is similar to the new one introduced for the Mind Lock spell but is not exactly the same as that would be too easy. Again no clue as to whether this uses current or starting mind points for either the attacker or defender, no indication as to whether the defender needs to roll white, black or either shields to defend (again assumption is that it is based on hero or monster type) but unlike the previous spell where each unblocked skull equates to one round of duration, here 1 skull does nothing, two or more skulls allow a duration of only one turn.

Mind Blast
This spell allows a Chaos Sorcerer to inflict Mind point damage on another character without having to be next to him or physically attacking him. A Chaos Sorcerer with this spell receives the number of Mind Blast tokens specified in the Quest. Each time he attacks, he must discard one of the tokens.
To attack with a Mind Blast, both characters roll a number of combat dice equal to their Mind Point score and add up the number of skulls they have. The one with the most skulls, be it attacker or defender, then inflicts Mind point damage on his opponent equal to the number of skulls he has in excess of his opponent’s score. If both scores are equal, neither character inflicts any damage. If a character or a monster loses all his Mind points as a result of a Mind Blast, he is knocked unconscious and remains out of play for the rest of that Quest. Mind points are recovered between Quests in the same way as Body points.

Again this is initially similar to the standard physical combat but again is not the same and doesn’t match the previous two spells as it compares skulls with skulls and introduces a brand new unprecedented rule that can back fire on the caster and involve them being attacked and losing Mind points on their own turn. Finally, it introduces a new concept, specifically for this spell, of unconsciousness but doesn’t explain the handling of unconscious characters, apart from stating that the remain out of play for the rest of that Quest. Are they magically transported out of the dungeon, at the point of being rendered unconscious, if so does their equipment, gold and so on go with them, this could be a blessing for that character rather than a curse, effectively a ring of return or escape spell for free.

Also the following spells seem to describe a Mind Attack spell but don't use any such mechanism

Dispell
The Sorcerer may pick one spell-using character and force him to discard one of his spell cards at random. That spell is then lost for the duration of the Quest. Discard after use.

Madness
Cast this spell on one figure to affect it with a frightening madness. The Evil Wizard player may then move that figure on his next turn, although the affected figure may not attack or cast spells. Discard after use.

Fear
The target of this spell is filled with unreasonable terror, and may not attack or cast spells on his next turn, although he may move and defend. Discard after use.

[QorDaq]

There is definitely room for improvement in the verbiage in all of these, and also a need for clearer definitions. I don't know how much of this is simply different folks working on the mechanics of such spells at different times without being fully familiar with what had been done previously, or perhaps even an attempt to make spell casting more interesting, vs a deliberate but not well-explained effort to establish different types of spell saves. Some could even be artifacts or fragmented rules from previous iterations of the game before a lot of the complexity was purportedly removed.

In general, I like the idea of Mental Combat being a distinction from it's Physical counterpart, but it could have been better presented if that were the intent.

Regardless, as you (Bareheaded Warrior) have pointed out, and has been discussed variously over the years, the inconsistencies and confusing text does nothing to help support the expectation of streamlined and generally simple mechanics which are the hallmark of HQ. It'd be great if AH were to "Officially" tackle such questions for the masses. The simplest way they could do so, would be to release specific examples with clarifications to how these myriad saves are meant to work.

I make that last point because, while we as a community are generally happy to clean things up and or houserule what doesn't make sense, the wider public likely will never benefit from such efforts--and this could turn some away from the game over time.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I agree entirely but sadly AH's policy making is outside of my control, but if they ever want some good advice, then they know where we are.

To tidy this lot up I'm currently considering two options, with my preference on the later:

1. Convert them all to use the 'sleep mechanism' that is rolling one combat die per Mind point (although I would need to clarify whether this is current or starting Mind point value), rolling a shield breaks the spell (doesn't specify white, black or either, but unstated assumption may be white for heroes and black for monsters as per usual combat rules)

Or, my preferred option,

2. Convert them all to use the 'mind combat mechanism' that is attacker rolls one combat dice for each mind point, counting skulls, defender does the same counting shields, number of excess skulls indicates number of Body points lost or the duration of the spell effects (i.e. the number of turns) depending on the specific spell card text

The first option is the most simple and using this as a spell break mechanism has the advantage that you don't need to keep track of the spell duration, however a common complaint around HeroQuest is the under-utilisation of the "Mind" characteristic, option 2 utilises this characteristic more, taking into account both the attacker's and defender's Mind point value rather than just that of the defender. The second option also has the benefit of re-using the existing and already familiar combat mechanism, rather than introducing a new one and the second option has a richer outcome, a range of values from zero skulls and upwards rather than just the binary outcome of the first method 'either you scored one or more shields or you didn't'

[lestodante]

I always intend "shield" as your usual defend shield, so, white shield for the heroes and black for monsters.
If they meant any shield, they were giving 50% chance to defend (because there is a total of 3 shields on a combat die) so they could have preferred to write "roll a skull" (50% chance) and avoid misunderstood.
As for "Mind Points" I prefer to interpretate as the CURRENT mind points and to specify "Starting Mind Points" when required. The Chaos Sorcerer may wish to insist mentally attacking the same Hero as his Mind Points are reduced and he is becoming more vulnerable (rolling less dice because of previous MP loss). Many people is also using custom spells or artifacts reducing Mind Points when used so it will add more strategy to the use of such kind of items/spells as you become mentally weaker and an easier target for mind attacks.
I do't like to write obvious things on cards as it can be a wast of precious space, for example on the US cards when they repeat on healing spells/potions but does not give a Hero more than his starting number. They already sayd you can recover up to 4 lost body points. UP TO and LOST are already key words to interpretate the card in a correct way.
The 3 spells from the Against the Ogre Horde pack: the description on the tokens is definetely inaccurate, misunderstanding and missing lot of information while the correct rules are inside the questbook but are way too long to be written on a card and the text is often repetetive, so I re-wrote them as following. I only lost miss a part on Mind Lock but it was too long to fit into a card. The hero should not be able to defend on his first turn that is frozen but only from his second frozen turn.
I let players decide to apply it (if they've read the questbook full rules) or to intend the malus as the Sleep spell where the hero may try to break the spell on his first turn alreday.

ogrespellslestodante.jpg

[Bareheaded Warrior]

My own initial rewrites are below for your perusal and comment

Mind Lock
LOS, Mind Combat
This spell may be cast on any one character allowing the caster to lock the mind of the victim preventing him from taking any action for a number of turns. Use the Mind Combat rules from the rulebook, the number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicates the number of turns that the spell effects last for. A Mind Locked character places one Mind Lock token on their character board for each turn they are affected, removing one for each of their turns. A mind locked character may not move, attack, or perform any other action, but they may defend against other attacks using only one defend die.

Dominate
LOS, Mind Combat
This spell may be cast on any one character allowing the caster to take control of the victim for a number of turns. Use the Mind Combat rules from the rulebook, the number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicates the number of turns that the spell effects last for. If the spell is successful the caster may move, cast spells and fight with the character as normal and may attack the other characters with them.

Mind Blast
LOS, Mind Combat
This spell may be cast on any one character to inflict Mind point damage without having to be next to them or physically attacking them. Use the Mind Combat rules from the rulebook, the number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicates the number of Mind points lost by the victim.

Madness
LOS, Mind Combat
This spell may be cast on any one character to affect it with a frightening madness allowing the caster to move that character for a number of turns on that characters turn. Use the Mind Combat rules from the rulebook, the number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicate the number of turns that the spell effects last for. The affected figure may not attack or cast spells, but may defend as usual.

EDIT: Modified the above text in light of later discussions.

Fear
LOS, Mind Combat
This spell may be cast on any one character filling them with unreasonable terror so that they may not attack or cast spells for a number of turns. Use the Mind Combat rules from the rulebook, the number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicate the number of turns that the spell effects last for. The affected figure may not attack or cast spells, although they may move and defend.

Sleep
LOS, Mind Combat
This spell may be cast on any one character putting them to sleep for a number of turns. Use the Mind Combat rules from the rulebook, the number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicate the number of turns that the spell effects last for. Once asleep the victim may not defend if attacked but will awake at the start of his next turn, if attacked.

#Add Mind Combat process to the rulebook

Mind Combat
Some spells and special abilities involve Mind Combat and are labelled as such. This represents the battle of wills between characters to impose and to resist effects and uses the standard combat mechanism with the Mind Point characteristic rather than the usual Attack and Defend Dice.
The attacker rolls a number of combat dice equal to their mind points, counting skulls, the defender rolls a number of dice equal to their mind points counting shields (black for monsters, white for heroes). Any excess skulls rolled by the attacker indicate a loss of Body or Mind points or the number of turns that the spell effects last, see specific spell or ability description for details.

I’ve incorporated your point around the shields on the combat dice being the same as for standard combat, as I agree that is almost certainly the way in which it was intended to work, but I’ve left the ambiguity around current or starting Mind points in for the moment, as whilst I understand your point that ‘current’ mind points is the way that you interpret that, I’m not yet convinced that was the intended interpretation…

I’m also having a think at the moment around the various spells and similar that Mind Lock, Freeze, Paralyse, Sleep and similar effects on the victim as there is a few of them and they aren’t consistent either…in the instance of Mind Lock, if the victim “may not move, attack, or perform any other action”, can they perform non-actions like drinking potions and opening doors, if not they why can they “defend against other attacks using only one defend die” and why only one defend dice but victims of the sleep spell may not defend themselves.

[wallydubbs]

I’m also having a think at the moment around the various spells and similar that Mind Lock, Freeze, Paralyse, Sleep and similar effects on the victim as there is a few of them and they aren’t consistent either…in the instance of Mind Lock, if the victim “may not move, attack, or perform any other action”, can they perform non-actions like drinking potions and opening doors, if not they why can they “defend against other attacks using only one defend die” and why only one defend dice but victims of the sleep spell may not defend themselves.

If a hero has a potion of Magic Resistance I allow him to use it instead of rolling. He can keep the potion and try to roll to free himself or drink the potion. However if he decides to roll and break it on his own merit and fail, he won't have the opportunity to drink the potion.

The last time I played I had cast Command on the Barbarian and it took hold for several turns. He did not have a Potion of Magic Resistance, but the Elf did. The players asked if they can give it to the Barbarian, I told them "he's under my command, if you want to give it to him I'll be the one to decide if he drinks it."

We then had a brief debate on weather the Elf could force the Barbarian to drink it. I told him if he wants to try and wrestle the Barbarian down we'll have a roll off. I roll 8 dice the Elf rolls 6, if he gets more skulls then I do he could force the Barbarian to drink it. We rolled off, I got 4 skulls, he got 3. He lost the potion in the process.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I would agree, the controlling player can choose whether their hero accepts any items given or passed, so if a hero is under the control of a Command (NA) or Dominate (EA) spell then the EWP can decline the offering.

For that potion and the other 2 similar ones below

Potion of Magical Aptitude
You discover a vial of silvery liquid under a loose flagstone. If you are the Elf or the Wizard, you may drink it at the beginning of your turn and then cast two spells in that turn rather than one. Discard after use.

I'm thinking of changing this to be a +2MP on the spell cast

Potion of Magic Resistance
You find a small bottle hidden beneath a rusty shield. You can drink the potion when a spell is cast on you and you may then ignore the effects of that spell. Discard after use.

This one would be a +2MP in defence against a spell cast on you

Potion of Magic Resistance
You discover a red glass bottle in a shallow pit. If you drink the potion you will be completely unharmed by the next magical fire attack to hit you, be it a spell or a Fireburst trap. Discard after a fire attack has been resisted.

And this one would either be immunity to a fire attack or would allow you to roll defend dice against a fire attack, maybe 3DD, as I moving towards fire attacks not allowing the usual defend roll as the thing that makes them distinctive (and the same for chill attacks), new topic on this to follow.

[lestodante]

Madness
Cast this spell on one figure to affect it with a frightening madness. The Evil Wizard player may then move that figure on his next turn, although the affected figure may not attack or cast spells. Discard after use.

Is the text for this spell correct? Is "figure" intended as a person or not? Because then they use the pronoun IT instead of HIM.
And later "on HIS next turn" is referred to the turn of the affacted figure or to the High Mage's turn.
In the first case, the High Mage casts the spell on a hero during Morcar's turn and then can move the hero during the hero's turn.
In the second case, the High Mage casts the spell on a hero during Morcar's turn, then it's the hero's turn and the hero may play his turn normally, then during the next Morcar's turn the High Mage can play his turn and also move the affected hero as one of his monsters.
Which one of the two is correct?

My solution to avoid misunderstood would be the following:

You may cast this spell on one figure
to affect it with a frightening madness.
You may then control that figure
during his next turn.

Not sure what I should use on the second line, IT or HIM
and on the fourth line: HIS or ITS

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Yeah I always read this as meaning the EWP gets to move the affected hero on his (the EWPs) turn, a least in terms of interpreting the actual text on the card, but it always made more sense to me to allow the EWP to move the affected character on the affected characters turn to avoid hero turn - hero moves, EWP turn - spell cast, hero moves again...situation, so I would reword along the lines of

Madness
LOS, Mind Combat
This spell may be cast on any one character to affect it with a frightening madness allowing the caster to move that character for a number of turns on that characters turn. Use the Mind Combat rules from the rulebook, the number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicate the number of turns that the spell effects last for. The affected figure may not attack or cast spells, but may defend as usual.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I have broadly split these into two categories “physical effect” and “mind combat” although one spell “Chains of Darkness” could, as described, go into either category. If we put it into the physical effect category it would just become a clone of “Strands of Binding” but as one is a “chaos” spell and one is “hero” spell that might be fine. Alternatively this could be considered as a “mind combat category spell, i.e. the chains are not physical but are created within the mind of the victim preventing them from moving until the illusion has been dispelled, not sure which is better…so for the moment I’ve cloned it and put it into both categories and we’ll see how it plays out

Physical Effect: These ones, although magically generated, have a localised non-magical, physical effect on all within their range.

Cloak of Shadows
You may summon up a patch of darkness and place a Cloak of Shadows tile on the gameboard. Any figures in the shadows may not attack, be attacked, or cast spells while they are there. This piece may not be moved and lasts until the end of the Quest. Keep this card by the side of the gameboard for reference.
I get that those within the darkness couldn’t be targeting by attacks (and to hand, missile, spells from outside, as they couldn’t be seen, but couldn’t those on the inside still attack those on the outside, and what about inside-to-inside, again no casting, missile but hand-to-hand would still work or would it, movement in complete darkness?
Alternatively, this one could be taken to mean that the shadow absorbs all light, in which case no one inside could see anything (inside and outside) and no one outside could see in. This would mean that the cloud would block all vision and line of sight for and to those inside, but hand-to-hand combat (attack and defend) could proceed as usual (diagonal?) as presumably both would be blind so no relative advantage
Also, lasts until end of quest, presumably caster could cancel it, what if caster is killed, or moves on elsewhere presumably it would cease…

Strands of Binding
LOS
The Sorcerer may fire magical threads from their fingers which will entangle one target. The target may not move or attack until they destroy the Strands of Binding which have one Body point and roll four defend dice. The target may defend against other attacks.
Not clear on this one, if they are sufficiently bound up that they cannot move or attack, then how do they break the strands (conceivably by attacking them through wriggling or internal weapon attacks, but you would imagine those are weaker than standard attacks…) but more importantly if they are that bound up then how do they possibly defend against other attacks as usual.

Chains of Darkness
LOS
You may cast this spell on one character. That character may not move or fight until the beginning of your next turn, although they may defend or cast spells.
Same questions as previous one, plus does this just become a clone of Strands of Binding which is an option, although if this is physical then perhaps this is an opportunity for a strength test

Tempest
LOS
A small Tempest is created which envelops one character of your choice. That character will then miss their next turn.
This appears to isolate the square that you are on, and potentially constrain you, so whilst “miss a turn” feels out of place it is probably accurate, but does that mean that you are not able to do anything, move, attack, cast, defend, open a door or chest, drink a potion AND also how would that work if someone tried to attack, cast at you, presumably that wouldn’t work either…

Blinding Sleet
The Sorcerer may fill a room with blinding sleet. No one in that room may move, make missile attacks, or cast spells until the beginning of the Evil Wizard’s next turn. Characters may only attack or defend if they are adjacent to another character.
This one makes more sense, but I would remove the “sorcerer” and “evil wizard” and replace with a more generic “caster”, only attack, specify hand-to-hand or adjacent, defend as usual. What about drinking potions and casting spells on themselves. Perhaps refer to specific missile, LOS, and so on here instead

Mind Combat: These ones appear to have a direct effect on the mind of the target

Sleep
LOS, Mind Attack
This spell will put one character to sleep. See Mind Combat in the Book of Spellcasting for full details. The number of excess skulls rolled by the spellcaster indicates the number of turns that the spell effects last. Once asleep they may not defend if attacked. They will awake if they are attacked.
This one makes sense as written, the shock!

Fear
LOS, Mind Attack
The target of this spell is filled with unreasonable terror and may not attack or cast spells on their next turn, although they may move and defend.
Running a round in a state of fear and panic, so movement is ok (but should it be controlled by player or random or not permitted), no conscious actions so no attack or cast but presumably defending against an attack would be ok as self-preservation would kick in, but would that brak the spell effects like sleep.

Madness
LOS, Mind Combat
This spell may be cast on any one character to affect it with a frightening madness allowing the caster to move that character for a number of turns on that characters turn. Use the Mind Combat rules from the rulebook, the number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicate the number of turns that the spell effects last for. The affected figure may not attack or cast spells, but may defend as usual.
Running a round in a state of madness, so movement is ok (but should it be controlled by player or random or not permitted), no conscious actions so no attack or cast but presumably defending against an attack would be ok as self-preservation would kick in, but would that brak the spell effects like sleep.
How is this different to fear, need something to make each a little distinct, maybe fear should be paralysing, no movement and madness random movement…

Random movement - roll a red die - 1= 1 square north, 2 = 1 square east, 3 = 1 square south 4 = 1 square west, otherwise 5-6 or if target square is blocked then stay in place and movement ends. Still capped by max move.

Mind Lock
LOS, Mind Attack
This spell will lock the mind of the target and prevent them from taking any action. See Mind Combat in the Book of Spellcasting for full details. The number of excess skulls rolled by the spellcaster indicates the number of turns that the spell effects last. A Mind Locked character places one Mind Lock token on their character board for each turn they are affected, removing one for each of their turns. A mind locked character may not move, attack, or perform any other action, but they may defend against other attacks using only one defend die.
A mind locked character may not move, attack, or perform any other action, - this piece seems clear but then - but they may defend against other attacks using only one defend die – why, how?

Dominate
LOS, Mind Attack
This spell allows the caster to take control of the target. See Mind Combat in the Book of Spellcasting for full details. The number of excess skulls rolled by the caster indicates the number of turns that the spell effects last. If they are successful, the Chaos Sorcerer places a Dominate counter on the character’s board and may move that character immediately. They may move, cast spells and fight with the character as normal and may attack the other characters with them.
Should this be move “immediately” or move on the character subsequent turns
Does this need more restrictions around permitted or restricted actions, should they really be allowed to cast spells, can they throw all of their equipment into a bottomless chasm, how or do they defend, can they choose not to, can they give and receive items, open doors, chests, jump pits, choose to fall into them and so on. Agreed move and attack (hand-to-hand and missile) but the rest?

Chains of Darkness
LOS
You may cast this spell on one character. That character may not move or fight until the beginning of your next turn, although they may defend or cast spells.
If you can cast spells and defend as usual how restricted are you really, compare with being in a pit reducing your attack and defend by one die, restricted movement

Apologies for the brain dump, but welcome to my mind...