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Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE]

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE]

Postby Kurgan » Friday April 14th, 2023 11:46am

wallydubbs wrote:Just wondering, in this new edition of Hero Quest where North America now has equipment cards, there are multiple cards now for various items, there's only 1 set of Bracers, though, are those just a 1 time buy? Or could more then one hero have the Bracers too?
Otherwise why would there be multiple helmet and Longsword cards, etc?


They have explained this in the remake Rulebook and elsewhere many times because like you, many people are confused by this, thinking that limited cards means limited stock/supply, but it's not true. They have said nothing has changed... you "buy" or find the item, you look at the card, write it down and then return the card to the deck/pile/etc. It is still available to other characters, but they used this presumably to save cost on making a nice "armory board" menu (which I think is easier for shopping but that's me) that they can then more easily expand it later and they know SOME players (maybe EU players?) like to have the cards at their spot to refer to.

But if you're wielding a broadsword, do you really need to "refer" to the card every time you attack? It rolls 3 combat dice. That's all it is! You can buy all the broadswords you can afford even if you are not holding the card and it's fine.

But yes, they gave multiples of certain things so you could have them as a luxury item. Why would they want to limit the dagger to one purchase, but let you buy three longswords, battle axes and crossbows? That would make no sense. But never fear, that's not the rule!

In fact, in the 1st Edition of HeroQuest (1989) there was no rule that cards limited supply either. But more than a few players "remember" (or thought they remembered) there being a rule just because there were two copies of the helmet and two of the shield. But the 2nd edition (1990) removed these dupes and added the bracers and cloak (having more to do with space on the printer sheet than any thought of game mechanics). The Adventure Design kit gave you a new character sheet and reminded/clarified that you write it down, meaning you don't have to hang onto cards to have those abilities. That was the intention anyway.

Now there is ONE official edition that explicitly DOES limit Equipment/Armory supply by cards, and that's the Japanese game system (1991). But that edition has other changes like that each Hero has equipment limitations not just the Wizard (Elf can't wear body armor and is the only one who can use the crossbow; Warrior aka Barbarian is the only one who can use the strongest sword/armor.... every hero has one legendary weapon that only they can use, etc).

So the only truly "limited stock" items are the Treasure cards, but even those go back into the deck and you can "stockpile" the same potion quest after quest if you want to, according to the NA/Remake rules. If you're the sort who demands a copy of a card for each instance of an item, okay, but that's not how the game was designed (and I hope you have a very large printing budget! those quest books are filled with items that have no card or don't care about the stock!). Heroes don't have to fight over the "last" of any of the bits of equipment. Some might find it "more realistic" somehow, but like some other proposed house rules I don't use, what kind of realism is it that there's only one boardsword in the entire Kingdom/Realm/Empire for sale???

So don't worry about buying multiple copies of the new game system so you can have "enough" cards to equip all your heroes. Just use a pencil. |_P


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Re: Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE]

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Saturday April 15th, 2023 7:01am

Kurgan wrote:In fact, in the 1st Edition of HeroQuest (1989) there was no rule that cards limited supply either. But more than a few players "remember" (or thought they remembered) there being a rule just because there were two copies of the helmet and two of the shield. But the 2nd edition (1990) removed these dupes and added the bracers and cloak (having more to do with space on the printer sheet than any thought of game mechanics).


I think that unfortunately you need to be very careful within the world of HeroQuest rules about drawing assumptions from a lack of explicitly stated rules in the rulebook. Some HeroQuest rules are like certain wild and elusive animals, after months or even years of cautious stalking you may find a few traces, some footprints and spoor, and perhaps if you are lucky a fleeting glimpse, but these furtive, reclusive creatures are careful never to appear exposed in the open light of day, and would never be caught explicitly stated in a rule book, instead you must infer their presence from hints in side-material like Quest design, Quest Notes and similar off-beat locations...

For example, as we have discussed at length elsewhere How Treasure chests work in the EU rules (LONG), there is no explicit rule in the First Edition (or Second Edition) rulebook that states that you have to move adjacent to a Chest in order to get your grubby mitts on the contents, and yet that is exactly the way the game works. Us, European and Australasian players have NOT spent the last few decades, casting longing glances at these mysterious objects, wishing that there was some way in which they could be opened. the rule is inferred from other material.

In much the same way to state that because there "was no rule that cards limited supply" in First Edition (whilst that statement is correct) drawing an assumption from that to state that means cards did NOT limit supply and that you were supposed to just write the equipment and its properties in pencil on your character sheet is NOT correct (and neither is that assumption stated anywhere in the First Edition rulebook).

1. The First Edition character sheet has no place on it to write Equipment, obviously that doesn't prevent you from scribbling it on the back, but if the intention was for Equipment to be written on your Character Sheet as you state, then surely they would have put a box on there named "Equipment" (and some other later editions did exactly that) Character Sheet

2. If the First Edition had no "cards limit supply" rule then why provide duplicates of certain Equipment Cards that you mention above

3. Quest Notes explicitly state that you must take the Equipment Card or be carrying the Equipment Card to get the benefit, for example

Game System: Quest for the Spirit Blade wrote:Any player who moves onto one of these squares must roll a die. If he rolls a 5 or 6, he will lose one Body Point from falling masonry. If the player is wearing a helmet, and has a helmet card, then he will only lose a Body point on the roll of a 6...

...The player should take the appropriate card that he may keep.


Game System: Lair of the Orc Warlord wrote:The player may take a spear card from the Equipment pack


Game System: Bastion of Chaos wrote:That player takes a shield card from the Equipment cards

...and the player should take the appropriate card, which he may keep.


4. The buying equipment rules state that there is a card for each item (not type) of Equipment available for purchase and again indicate that you take the card

Game System: Rules of Play: Buying Equipment wrote:There is a card for each item of equipment available for purchase. Any player wishing to buy equipment should take the card they want.


I appreciate that this doesn't help answer the OP's question as I don't possess the new edition, but lets not get retconned!
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE]

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Sunday April 30th, 2023 4:39am

Kurgan wrote:The heroes derived their base attack from starting values, no explicit references to starting weapons (which makes that one quest where you are unarmed a bit easier!).


You are correct in terms of the letter of the rules, and the same applies for monsters (although I don't think that is explicitly stated either) but I've never been comfortable with that aspect of the rules because it doesn't really make sense to me.

The idea of have a game mechanism where your attack strength (and other stats) are intrinsic to the character is fine and you could combine that with an advancement mechanism that allows you to spend XP/Gold to get an upgrade 200 XP/GC gives you an extra Attack Die and so on.

You could also have a game mechanism where your attack strength (and other stats) are equipment-based and you can combine that with an advancement mechanism that allows you to spend XP/Gold to get better equipment 250 XP/GC buys you a Broadsword which gives you an extra Attack Die and so on.

However combining the two approaches within a single game doesn't make sense to me. For example:

Under SE rules assuming the intrinsic approach the Barbarian gets to roll 3AD against adjacent monsters, as part of the properties of just being the Barbarian. If he later earns some gold and chooses to buy himself a Hand Axe (an upgrade) then presumably the card overrides his intrinsic 3AD attack on adjacent monsters and he now rolls only 2AD against adjacent monsters, a costly downgrade, or does he need to remember to stow his weapon before attacking to avoid the penalty? Barbarian hits Orc with Axe 2AD but doesn't kill it, realises his mistake, stows his Axe, punches the Orc instead and gets 3AD?

Equally for some of the later Quest Pack which have monsters explicitly stated as being armed with particular missile weapons, Bows and Crossbow, which allow them to perform missile attacks, with an attack strength that matches the corresponding equipment card (at least for the Crossbow, the Equipment Card for the Bow is not included), if monster attributes are intrinsic then these would just be new Monster Types - Orc Crossbowman, Orc Archer, Goblin Archer and their equipment would not need to be stated in the same way that the Man-at-Arms "Crossbowman" card has no mention of the fact that he is equipped with the Crossbow, the ability to perform missile attacks is an intrinsic part of his stats (and he only gets 2AD in attack which doesn't match the Crossbow Equipment Card anyway) and the rules state that Men-at- Arms cannot have Equipment Cards.

Personally I would go with the Equipment Based option for consistency.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE]

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Thursday June 8th, 2023 8:14am

Full list of Quest Treasure/Special Equipment Cards for spellcasters is now on the Ideas for new Wizard equipment topic
Last edited by Bareheaded Warrior on Sunday July 9th, 2023 4:00am, edited 3 times in total.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE]

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Wednesday June 21st, 2023 9:27am

It seems to be a bit of a mixed bag as usual, which is why I prefer a hybrid approach.

As you say the NA edition;

Gave each hero an explicit starting weapon
Introduced the Dagger (instead of the Wizard being armed with something Dagger-like but not named)
Added the Longsword a 3AD, diagonal weapon,

All of which I would regard as an improvement but then they;

Dropped the Hand Axe for no obvious reason
Dropped the Spear, so no 2AD diagonal attack weapon
Also the Dagger, the weapon of choice for our poor Wizard who spends all his time poring over dusty tomes and has no time or inclination to practise his martial abilities, and yet he has taken the time out to master a throwing knife...

Hybrid

General Notes: The text in italics, is my system of key word labelling, which may one day grow up to be icons, hopefully it is mostly self-explanatory (I guess I'll find out), but the Wizard can only use Equipment labelled "Basic".

The First Edition of HeroQuest came with 2 Shield cards and 2 Helmet cards which I take to mean that the intention was for the equipment card purchases to be limited to the number of cards available (why else would you have duplicates). This appears to have been dropped by SE and was abandoned entirely by the NA edition (production costs anyone)

I would restore duplicates in the Equipment Card deck and restore the ‘scarcity’ aspect in that you can only buy what is available in the deck. There may be a long debate on how many of each card should be in the deck so for now I’ll just list the cards and a minimum and a maximum number of copies of each Equipment Card and the details can roll on, but the assumption is that all of these are Quantity = 1 unless otherwise stated.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE]

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Saturday June 24th, 2023 5:12am

Equipment Card Notes

1) Standard equipment cards, with the Equipment Card backs.
2) If cards are used and discarded or lost then they are returned to the Equipment Card deck at the end of the Quest so are available for purchase again, between quests.
3) Quantity available limits ability to purchase, no card, no purchase.
4) All cards are quantity 1 unless otherwise stated.

Quest Treasure Card Notes

1) Standard Quest Treasure Cards, with Quest Treasure Card backs
2) Not initially included in Equipment Card deck, as these are found during Quests
3) If cards are used and discarded or lost then they are returned to the Equipment Card deck at the end of the Quest so are available for purchase again, between quests.
4) Quantity available limits ability to purchase, no card, no purchase.
5) All cards are quantity 1 unless otherwise stated.

Artefacts

1) The term "Equipment Cards" in general applies equally to Quest Treasure Cards, the only exception being that they are handed out in-quest rather then being available for purchase initially
2) The label "Artefact" gives special properties covered elsewhere, for example "Rust" spell will not affect anything with "Artefact" label, some monsters have invulnerability to non-artefact weapons
Last edited by Bareheaded Warrior on Sunday July 9th, 2023 4:12am, edited 4 times in total.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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