Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE]

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I've just been having a think about the Equipment Cards in the Second Edition and have noticed a few issues, so I've started this topic to get peoples thoughts. I'm fairly sure that none of these issues will be a surprise to anyone but I haven't found a topic that specifically calls them out.

#1 Weapon function and prices

Problem statement:

1. The Dwarf and the Elf are equipped with some form of starting weapon that enables 2AD to be rolled against adjacent targets only, this must be a weapon as the text in whatever Quest indicates different stats for attacks if unarmed, but the weapon isn’t named and isn’t available on the equipment cards for purchase by the Wizard (no one else would be interested).

2. The shortsword allows 2AD and diagonal attacks for a cost of 150, the Hand Axe allows 2AD attacks and the ability to throw it for 150GC however the spear allows both diagonal and thrown attacks but still costs the same 150GC – extra functionality for no extra charge!

3. Wizard weapon upgrades go from his base unnamed weapon allowing 1AD adjacent attacks, his next and only purchasable weapon upgrade is the staff that gives him 2AD and diagonal attacks. What happened to the 1AD diagonal option and 2AD non-diagonal, the logical steps in his weapon upgrade path, particularly as we know that a 2AD non-diagonal weapon option must exist (see point 1).

4. The staff has all the properties of the short sword but costs 100GC, 50GC less than the short sword at 150GC

Proposed changes: Inspiration from NA edition

1. Short sword text changed to allow 2AD attack but remove the diagonal attack ability and reduce the cost to 100GC

2. The Dwarf and the Elf to have the Shortsword called out as their starting weapon on their character board. Following this logic, the Barbarian to have the Broadsword called out as his starting weapon and the Wizard the Staff.

3. Modify the text on the Spear card to remove the ability to throw the weapon

4. Modify the text on the Staff card to make that 1AD and diagonal, cost 50GC, but starting weapon for the Wizard (and maybe ‘both hands’)

5. Modify the text on the Short sword to allow the Wizard to purchase it - controversial!

6. Port the Wizard’s Staff Quest Treasure from NA edition to restore the Wizards 2AD with diagonal maximum attack level.

[wallydubbs]

I was brought up with the North American version so this conundrum was never brought up. Is there no dagger in the original European version?
I guess I would just naturally assume the stats of the Elf and Dwarf indicate a Short sword and Broadsword for the Barbarian.

[Kurgan]

Correct, no Dagger (or magical throwing dagger) in EU edition (also no Longsword; Bracers & Cloak of Protection were added in 2nd edition of 1990, they weren't in first!).

The heroes derived their base attack from starting values, no explicit references to starting weapons (which makes that one quest where you are unarmed a bit easier!).

[Bareheaded Warrior]

It seems to be a bit of a mixed bag as usual, which is why I prefer a hybrid approach.

As you say the NA edition;

Gave each hero an explicit starting weapon
Introduced the Dagger (instead of the Wizard being armed with something Dagger-like but not named)
Added the Longsword a 3AD, diagonal weapon,

All of which I would regard as an improvement but then they;

Dropped the Hand Axe for no obvious reason
Dropped the Spear, so no 2AD diagonal attack weapon
Also the Dagger, the weapon of choice for our poor Wizard who spends all his time poring over dusty tomes and has no time or inclination to practise his martial abilities, and yet he has taken the time out to master a throwing knife...

Hybrid

General Notes: The text in italics, is my system of key word labelling, which may one day grow up to be icons, hopefully it is mostly self-explanatory (I guess I'll find out), but the Wizard can only use Equipment labelled "Basic".

The First Edition of HeroQuest came with 2 Shield cards and 2 Helmet cards which I take to mean that the intention was for the equipment card purchases to be limited to the number of cards available (why else would you have duplicates). This appears to have been dropped by SE and was abandoned entirely by the NA edition (production costs anyone)

I would restore duplicates in the Equipment Card deck and restore the ‘scarcity’ aspect in that you can only buy what is available in the deck. There may be a long debate on how many of each card should be in the deck so for now I’ll just list the cards and a minimum and a maximum number of copies of each Equipment Card and the details can roll on, but the assumption is that all of these are Quantity = 1 unless otherwise stated.

Throwing Knife
Weapon, Throwing, 1AD
This sharp knife allows you to roll one combat die in attack. You may also throw the Throwing Knife but if you do so you may lose it.
Cost 25 gold coins.

Quantity = 3 at least, maybe more
Comments: Adopts the properties and cost of the NA Dagger, but not introduced until after GS (KK/RotWL)

Staff
Weapon, Basic, Diagonal, Both Hands, 1AD
The Staff allows you to roll one combat dice in attack. The Staff may be used to attack diagonally.
Cost 50 gold coins.

Comments: Adopts the properties of the NA Staff with 1AD and cost changed to match. Wizard's starting weapon. This modification would need to be combined with porting the Wizard's Staff artefact from NA also.

Short sword
Weapon, Basic, Standard, 2AD
The Short sword allows you to roll two combat dice in attack.
Cost 100 gold coins.

Quantity = 2 (as 2 Heroes start with these) or maybe 3 (to take into account Wizard use of this and potentially Barbarian starting weapon if you introduce the Battle Rage ability)
Comments: Yes you read that right Basic, remove diagonal attack property and adjusted cost accordingly.

Throwing axe
Weapon, Throwing, 2AD
The Hand axe allows you to roll two combat dice in attack. You may also throw the Hand axe but if you do so you may lose it.
Cost 150 gold coins.

Quantity = 2
Comments: Added 'may' to the lose it due to potential mods around handling recovery of throwing weapons

Spear
Weapon, Diagonal, 2AD
The Spear allows you to roll two combat dice in attack. The Spear may be used to attack diagonally.
Cost 150 gold coins.

Comments: Dropped the "You may also throw the Spear but if you do so you lose it."

Broadsword
Weapon, Standard, 3AD
The Broadsword allows you to roll three combat dice in attack.
Cost 250 gold coins.

Longsword
Weapon, Diagonal, 3AD
This long blade allows you to roll three combat dice in attack. Because of its length, the longsword enables you to attack diagonally.
Cost 350 gold coins.

Comment: Ported from NA to extend equipment available for advancement purposes

Battle axe
Weapon, Standard, Both Hands, 4AD
The Battle axe allows you to roll four combat dice in attack.
Cost 400 gold coins.

Comment: Replaced "You may not use a shield when using the Battle axe." with "Both Hands" label

Short bow
Weapon, Missile, 2AD
The Short bow allows you to roll two combat dice in attack.
Cost 150 gold coins.

Comments: Some goblins are armed with this equipment in AToH, so I consider it as standard equipment that needs a card.

Crossbow
Weapon, Missile, 3AD
The Crossbow allows you to roll three combat dice in attack.
Cost 350 gold coins.

Comments: Still having a think about 'both hands' label here and the "You may not use the crossbow against an opponent who is adjacent to you." as that may better be considered as a rule to go into the rule book for missile weapon use rather than the crossbow specifically.

Repeater Crossbow
Weapon, Missile, 2AD
The Repeater Crossbow allows you to roll two combat dice in attack and enables you to shoot twice as a single action against the same or different targets.
Cost 500 gold coins.

Comments: Not introduced until after GS (KK/RotWL)

Shield
Armour, +1DD
The shield gives you one extra combat die in defence.
Cost 100 gold coins.

Quantity = 2

Comments: Removed the "The" from the original name

Helmet
Armour, +1DD
The helmet gives you one extra combat die in defence.
Cost 120 gold coins.

Quantity = 2

Comments: Removed the "The" from the original name

Chain Mail
Armour, +1DD
Chain mail armour allows you to roll one extra combat dice in defence.
Cost 450 gold coins.

Quantity = 2

Comments: Change to use 'extra' and stackable to simplify

Plate armour Plated Mail
Armour, +1DD
Plate armour allows you to roll two extra combat dice in defence.
Cost 850 gold coins.

Comments: Change to use 'extra' terminology, can't be stacked with other mail and removed movement penalty, discussion here Plate Mail movement penalty

EDIT: Edited this post to include the reworked ideas from later in the thread

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Then after rejigging, expand the Equipment Card deck by introducing a new ‘breed’ of Equipment Card

Equipment Cards in the base game (with the exception of throwing weapons) are all permanent, you purchase them and the benefits are permanent, but throwing weapons introduce the concept of single-use (or limited use) equipment cards.

Extending the range of single or limited use cards acts as another useful way of spicing up the game, increasing the range of equipment that can be purchased, extending out the effective lifespan of the advancement mechanism.

As always the assumption is that all of these are Quantity = 1 unless otherwise stated.

Under SE all the “Quest Treasures” are what I’ll refer to for the moment as Category A items

Category A: Permanent, unique, only available through Quest Notes (as opposed to Equipment Cards or Treasure Cards):

Borin’s Armour
Borin’s Armour allows you to roll four combat dice in defence.
ARMOUR

Orcs Bane
The sword, Orcs Bane allows you to roll two combat dice in attack. You may attack TWICE if you are fighting Orcs.
WEAPON

Spirit Blade
Spirit Blade allows you to roll three combat dice in attack OR four dice in attack against undead creatures: Skeletons, Zombies and Mummies
WEAPON

Talisman of Lore
The Talisman allows you to increase your Mind points by two as long as you have the Talisman in your possession.

Wand of Recall
The Wand of Recall allows you to cast two spells instead of one during your turn.

Under NA these same items still exist and a few more have been added (under Category A, list below) but a second category “Category B” was also created, see next post.

Rabbit Boots
To jump over 1 discovered trap per turn, roll anything but a black shield on a combat die

Arm Band of Healing
Restores 2 lost Body Points once per Quest. If the wearer's Body Points are reduced to zero, use immediately to restore 2 Body Points.

Wizard's Staff
Wizard only, Basic, Both Hands
The Wizard's staff allows you to attack diagonally with 2 combat dice. You cannot use a shield with the Wizard's Staff
Cost 200 gold pieces.

Cloak of Protection
The cloak allows you to roll one extra die in defence.
May only be used by Wizard
Cost 350 gold coins.

Comment: The latter one here is interesting as it is in EA already but as Equipment "Cloak of Protection", but under NA it is an artefact "Wizard's Cloak". I think in light of increasing the amount of purchasable equipment cards, especially for the Wizard it makes sense to keep it as an Equipment card.

In addition keep the ever divisive Bracers into an Equipment card but draw out the distinction that they are special with a slight modification of the name

Bracers of Defence
The bracers allow you to roll one extra combat die in defence.
May only be used by Wizard.
Cost 200 gold coins.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Category B: Single or limited use, non-unique, only available through Quest Notes (as opposed to Equipment Cards or Treasure Cards). Examples below. Note: the text is from the NA Edition and may need to be reworked to fit the SE text style.

Elixir of Life
This small bottle of pearly liquid will bring a Hero back to life, restoring all of his Body and Mind Points. The card is then discarded.
Cost 1000 gold coins.

Ring of Return
When invoked, this magical ring will return all Heroes that the ring wearer can "see" to the starting point of the Quest. The card is then discarded.
Cost ? gold coins.

Fire Ring
Protects the wearer from any two Chaos fire spells. Ring disappears after wearer has been protected from the second fire spell.
Cost ? gold coins.

Magical Throwing Dagger
Always inflicts 1 Body Point of damage when thrown at a monster a Hero can "see". Monster cannot defend. Dagger is lost once it is thrown and the card is then discarded.
Cost ? gold coins.

Quantity = 2-3

Dust of Disappearance
If tossed on any Hero, this dust allows that Hero to move past any monsters encountered on his next turn. The card is then discarded.
Cost ? gold coins.

Quantity = 2

Anti-poison Quill
Restores any of the owner's Body Points lost by poisoning if used immediately. The card is then discarded.
Cost ? gold coins.

Quantity = 2?

Note: The one thing that both NA categories have in common is that they are only available through the Quest Notes so “Quest Treasures” is a great description for these items, shame it was changed under NA to Artefacts, although ironically “Artefacts” is perhaps a better term for the Category A items that were the only type under EA editions – which were called “Quest Treasures”

Also you have the potions (in the broadest sense of the world) available through the Alchemists Store, which as Single or limited use, non-unique, items fit into Category B in terms of their function although they have a different means of delivery and have no card at all

Potion of Restoration
Drink this brown frothy liquid to restore 1 lost Body Point and 1 lost Mind Point. It's refreshing after a tough battle. The card is then discarded.
Cost 500 gold coins.

Comment: I would probably make this a "restores 4 MP" in SE or "restores D6 MP" in NA edition, to make it a direct equivalent to the Potion of Healing (and this ties in better in light of discussions around saving yourself from death with Healing Potions)

Potion of Dexterity
This sparkling liquid adds 5 movement squares to your next die roll or guarantees 1 successful pit jump. If you purchase more than one of these potions then you may only use 1 potion per turn. The card is then discarded.
Cost 100 gold coins.

Comment: Would probably not include this in EA as similar Potion of Speed already exists, NA edition is less clear as there is no card for Potion of Speed but it is mentioned in the Quest notes in ROTWL where it doubles movement as per the SE version.

Venom Antidote
This bubbling brew tastes foul but heals up to 2 Body Points of damage caused by poison needles or poison darts only. The card is then discarded.
Cost 300 gold coins.

Quantity = 1-2

Potion of Battle
If you have a really "weak" roll of the attack dice, you may drink this blood-red potion. It allows you 1 reroll of your attack dice. The card is then discarded.
Cost 200 gold coins.

Comment: Would probably not include this one, it is equivalent to +1 AD but as we already have Potion of Strength +2AD next turn only, Heroic Brew 2 attacks next turn only, Courage Spell and all the others this seems unnecessary.

My proposal is to create a full list of all magic items that appear in the game (initially the first 3 Quest Books only) that are not Category A “Artefacts” and could be used to build a new category under the “Equipment Cards” of items that are single or limited use, purchasable, limited in number*. Each of these, where one didn’t previously, could them have a card made, a price assigned (probably expensive 500GC+), a limit (assume 1 unless otherwise stated), and they could be added to the Equipment Card Deck from the start of the game (some could be introduced at a later point), giving players more choice of purchases and extending the advancement journey (and as this deck is easily extendable through additional cards with future expansions).

Limited availability, only one, or maybe in some cases a couple, of copies of that Equipment Card, so that it isn’t available to be (re)purchased until the original has been used and returned to the Equipment Deck, between quests, so there is no issue with stock-piling and the overpowering effects that can cause.

In addition, numerous Potions of Healing are sprinkled throughout various Quests, so I would include a couple of Equipment cards for these also.

Potion of Healing
You may drink the potion at any time. It will restore up to four lost Body points. The card is then discarded.
Cost 500 gold coins.

Quantity = 2

Comment: Scrolls probably merit a whole discussion in themselves, they aren't present in the EA version and I personally would probably leave it that way but for NA players scrolls could also be considered as purchasable Equipment.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Full list of New Quest Treasures / Special Equipment Cards now on the Lack of cards in the classic quest packs topic

[wallydubbs]

Just wondering, in this new edition of Hero Quest where North America now has equipment cards, there are multiple cards now for various items, there's only 1 set of Bracers, though, are those just a 1 time buy? Or could more then one hero have the Bracers too?
Otherwise why would there be multiple helmet and Longsword cards, etc?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Short answer is that I don't know as I don't possess the new edition, my own original edition still does the job, bar the odd pointy bit missing!

However my assumption would be that if you have a equipment card system as opposed to an armoury style equipment system, that could be considered just two variants of the same reference information (the latter reducing production costs) much like Monster Cards, but if you have a equipment card system that contains duplicates then the only reason that I can think of for that is that it is intended to limit availability, so 1 Bracers card only, would imply only one set is available for purchase.

Just out of interest what is the text on the bracers card, I'm curious as this particular type of equipment has caused some discussions over the years with it being in and then out of various editions, so I was wondering what the latest stance is?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Just around my post earlier about the Crossbow, Crossbow Pistol and Repeater Crossbow, an additional thought has occurred to me.

Even if we restrict these to one Equipment card each then between those 3 and the Short Bow we now have 4 cards for missile weapons (excluding throwing weapons) which seems excessive, especially when you bear in mind only 3 heroes can use them.

Perhaps another way of looking at this is to consider the crossbow as a class of missile weapon that covers a whole spectrum of individual "crossbows" within it, ranging from the light, portable, fast reload, lower powered, but expensive Crossbow Pistol all the way up to the Heavy Crossbow a heavy-duty, battlefield-ready, powerful enough to floor a knight at 300 yards, but heavy, cumbersome and takes an age to reload...

My earlier attempt was to better portray that range by splitting the HeroQuest Crossbow into two individual types, the Crossbow Pistol (the lighter one) and the Crossbow (the heavier one) but it might be a better option to assume that Heroes are going to choose to equip themselves for something suited to the task in hand and just consider a single Crossbow type from the lighter end of this range, after all the "heavy-duty battlefield-ready, powerful enough to floor a knight at 300 yards, but heavy, cumbersome and takes an age to reload..." option isn't really fit for purpose, a 300 yards range in a dungeon when it is rare that you can even see as far as 50 yards is overkill, there is a distinct lack of charging knights on horseback (and any that appeared would be so heavily concussed by the low ceilings The Wizard could take them out with a spoon), manoeuvring around in a confined dungeon, jumping pits and kicking open doors, the need to respond to rapid changes in circumstances like wandering monsters and ambushes make a siege crossbow that requires assembly from a cart and to be bolted to the floor before being drawn by a donkey might be a little impractical.

Perhaps this is a better option, merge the existing Crossbow with the Crossbow Pistol, into a single weapon, you can call it by either name as below, but this is effectively our standard HQ Crossbow but tweaked a little in price - some say the crossbow is over-powered, I say over-powered means under-priced, thank you CMOT Dibbler

Crossbow Pistol
Weapon, Missile, 3AD
The Crossbow Pistol allows you to roll three combat dice in attack.
Cost 450 gold coins.

Quantity = 1

Repeater Crossbow
Weapon, Missile, 2AD
The Repeater Crossbow allows you to roll two combat dice in attack and enables you to shoot twice as a single action against the same or different targets.
Cost 500 gold coins.

Quantity = 1

EDIT: Have edited the post above with these thoughts.