Ye Olde Inn

Incoming rant warning!

In the original EA first edition rulebook there is no mention of 'jumping' but there is plenty of information around traps, disarming of traps, including pit traps and falling block traps (and pit tiles and blocked square tiles are listed and named as components)

In the EA second edition rulebook the concept of 'jumping' is first introduced in a distinct section named 'Jumping a Pit'

In both sets of rules there is a lack of distinction between

a) the trap itself, combining some form of hidden mechanism that triggers something, and the event that is triggered - a spear shooting out of the wall, a swinging blade being released or whatever
b) a dungeon feature that is placed as a result of a certain types of traps being sprung, a blocked square or a pit (represented by a 'blocked square tile' or 'pit tile' respectively)

This confusion can be seen in the rulebook by the indiscriminate use of the term 'pit trap' being used to describe both the trap and the pit despite the two things being logically different and being handled differently by the rules and there being no tile for a pit trap only a tile for a pit (although that is named incorrectly).

This lead to some situations, that defied logic and were counter-intuitive, in earlier editions of the game like the ability for a Hero to be able to disarm/remove a blocked square that had been placed as a result of a trap “a fallen block” but not an identical “blocked square” that didn’t result from a trap (there was only one type of counter labelled “blocked square/falling block trap tile” as there was never intended to be any distinction once placed), or disarm/remove a hole in the ground “pit” that had been placed as a result of a trap (even if someone was in the hole at the time) but not a hole in the ground that didn’t result from a trap such as a “chasm”.

By the time the NA Edition was being worked on some of these glitches had been picked up and were partially tackled for that edition, but rather than recognising the cause of the confusion, poorly worded rules leading to a lack of distinction between traps and dungeon features, and rewriting those rules to make the distinction clear that traps are traps and dungeon features resulting from some types of trap being sprung are not themselves traps, the editor decided to just add additional rules stating that you couldn’t disarm/remove a pit after the trap had been sprung, and you couldn’t disarm/remove a falling block after a the trap had been sprung, but left the rules that caused the confusion in place.

In a classic case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing, whilst someone was beavering away in one corner of the office trying to ensure that confusion within earlier edition wasn't repeated in the new edition, in another corner of the office someone else was designing two different and distinct counters for ‘falling blocks’ and ‘blocked squares’ as the rules appeared to be handling the two features differently so presumably players would need two different counters so they could make that distinction clear!

To make matters worse, during the same period a third 'hand' was revising the 'jumping a pit' section seemly with the intention of eradicating the distinction between a pit and a trap in the rules, even to the extent of adding notes at the end of that section explaining the difference between jumping different types of traps, both pits and other traps, but then named the next section 'More about Jumping Pit Traps' even though some of the rules in that section apply whether the trap you are attempting to jump is a pit or any other type of trap just to reinforce confusion.

Once the distinction is made between a trap, and the rules for handling traps, and a dungeon feature, and the rules for handling that feature, then it resolves a lot of confusion, it becomes obvious that the ‘disarm’ action applies to traps only, once a trap has been set off then it is no longer a trap and any dungeon feature resulting from it is handled as per the usual rules.

I think that one aspect of the confusion caused by this lack of distinction in the original rules, that wasn’t clarified later, is around jumping. In the EA Second Edition rulebook, the rules for jumping are presented in one section of the rulebook only, and that section is titled ‘Jumping a Pit’ NOT ‘Jumping a Trap’. At no point in the rulebook does it state that you can jump a trap, only that you can jump a pit (and in later expansion this is expanded to included some other features like ‘pits of darkness’ and chasms that can be jumped like a pit)

I don't think that there was ever any intention of allowing Heroes to jump traps, jumping was introduced as a mechanism for crossing pits and pit-like obstacles, pits of darkness and chasms ONLY.

Later developments included some proposed developments that were never implemented like 'blind jumping' and 'double blind jumping' were as a result of confusion in the way original rules were written, and it was never intended that our Heroes would bound around the board like rabbits.

I tend to look at it from a perspective of role-playing and "realism" (perhaps 'immersion' is a better term). If the characters are physically capable of jumping, there's no reason they should require a hole in the floor to activate this basic ability. Whether or not jumping over a particular spot enables them to avoid a trap that may or may not be there is up to the game master's envisioning of how the trap works.

As far as "disarming" already triggered traps, I never regarded that as possible. Pit traps work like doors, once open they are open. And the idea of putting a collapsed ceiling back in place just seems silly.

Interesting, I am still remembering differences between the versions (I now own the original edition from 1989, but am least familiar with the EU 2nd edition). I could imagine the Dwarf digging out the debris left by the falling rock (and bracing the ceiling with something?) or filling in a pit (even a giant one, making it "disappear" as if by magic!). But yes, this was not part of the version I grew up playing (NA). Always interesting to see it from the other perspective...

I started with a family group in 1989 with the EA First Edition and then as we played our way through GS, KK and ROTWL over the next few years, I was also playing in parallel with a group of school friends, using the EA Second Edition, as that was the edition that they owned.

Years later I played with a fresh batch of newbies using EA Second Edition and even later than that, after discovering the NA Edition rules here at the inn, another fresh batch of newbies using the NA Edition (at least starting with NA Edition as written and tweaking as we went!)

I might be wrong in my assumption that the differences between 'jumping' in EA Second Edition and NA Edition was down to a transatlantic translation error, it may have been a deliberate design change, just badly implemented, but either way I started this thread to call out these differences as I don't think I have seen this clearly stated elsewhere (that said I do find with the sheer volume of information at the inn, everything you can think of has probably been discussed before somewhere, the only question is whether you can find it!)

In summary

• EA First Edition = no jump rules (as far as I can tell)
• EA Second Edition = jump rules apply to 'pits' only (and later expansions stretch this out to include some other pit-like features)
• NA Edition = jump rules apply to 'pits' and all discovered but unsprung traps

Markus Darwath wrote:I tend to look at it from a perspective of role-playing and "realism" (perhaps 'immersion' is a better term). If the characters are physically capable of jumping, there's no reason they should require a hole in the floor to activate this basic ability. Whether or not jumping over a particular spot enables them to avoid a trap that may or may not be there is up to the game master's envisioning of how the trap works.

I get that but for me you have to balance the negative of increased complexity in the rules with the positive of improved gameplay (and indeed "immersion").

With regards to jump rules, the NA First Edition was the simplest, by simply not having them, apparently. The EA Second Edition introduced jump rules, increasing complexity but also improving gameplay. The NA Edition, deliberately or otherwise, expanded the jump rules to cover pits and all unsprung traps, again increasing complexity and possibly, arguably improving gameplay (I don't think it did personally hence my preference for Second Edition rules in this respect).

I think what you are suggesting Markus is that jump rules should be applied to pits and applied to unsprung traps depending on how the game master envisions how that particular trap works. I assume that considering the 3 types of trap in play in the NA Edition (ignoring expansions)

• Pit Trap - you are told if you search that an area of the floor looks weak, so it that circumstance jumping seems like it could be a logical option
• Falling Block Trap - you are told if you search that the ceiling looks dangerous, logically that sounds like jumping would be a very bad option
• Spear Trap - you are told if you search that a square looks suspicious, logically I have no idea whether that information is sufficient to work out whether jumping is a viable option

For me that is going a level too far down into the detail, and I prefer the simpler Second Edition rules (in respect to jump rules at least), as I feel that they hit that sweet spot of a relatively small amount of complexity in return for a considerable improvement in gameplay but that is just my preference.

You could reason that the falling block trap isn't just a weak ceiling but a trigger that causes the rocks to drop. So "jumping" over it is avoiding the trigger on the ground (similar to spear trap). Imagination can rationalize a lot of game mechanics.

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:In summary

• UK First Edition = no jump rules (as far as I can tell)
• UK Second Edition = jump rules apply to 'pits' only (and later expansions stretch this out to include some other pit-like features)
• US Edition = jump rules apply to 'pits' and all discovered but unsprung traps

This is probably the biggest source of differences in our points of view. I've only ever played the NA (and now remake) edition, given that I live in the U.S. Truthfully, I never really knew there were other editions before finding Ye Olde Inn. My fuzzy memory is trying to tell me I may have heard that Zargon was called Morcar in the UK and that there were expansions available there that weren't here, but I can't be sure on that point. I definitely didn't know there were multiple UK revisions or significant enough differences that would make the UK expansions not directly compatible with the US game system.

Kurgan wrote:You could reason that the falling block trap isn't just a weak ceiling but a trigger that causes the rocks to drop. So "jumping" over it is avoiding the trigger on the ground (similar to spear trap). Imagination can rationalize a lot of game mechanics.

That is exactly how I always took it, based on the fact it's called a "Trap". To me the word implies a deliberate design, where a natural structural instability would be a "Hazard". Also, "Disarming" to me has a different connotation than fixing or shoring up a hazard. The latter would generally imply the need for available materials, vs simply disengaging a trigger mechanism.

It does make sense to me in a way to expand the ‘jump’ option to avoid unsprung traps but there is a few points to consider

Why only ‘floor’ traps?

Certain types of traps could have a trigger that could be avoided by being jumped over, like a weighted floor section, (although you might want to amend the text that Zargon reads out as that gives the wrong impression if you are going down this route) however others that utilise tripwires, at ankle height, could just be stepped over, or at chest level could be ducked under so it sounds like we are using the ‘jump’ function in more of a ‘dodge’ function to get passed an unsprung trap without triggering or disarming it.

So perhaps a new ‘Dodge’ action might be a better option and just think of all the things you could use that for, Rogue type Heroes…

What about other trap triggers like first hero to step into a room, or traps triggered by opening a door, or furniture traps could these be dodged also (whether literally ‘jumped’ or not) as I presume they couldn’t be jumped, if we are using ‘jump’ generically to mean dodge then why can’t these traps be ‘jumped’?

Why expand the ‘jump’ option?

Assuming that the expansion of jump to cover unsprung traps in US Edition was a deliberate design decision (not convinced but moving on) then why?

To get around the trap behind the door situation? No because jumping traps in US edition relied on the traps being found first (although there was a ‘blind jump option, that was never implemented)

What other reason, the only one that I can think of was that they wanted a way for Heroes that didn’t have a Toolkit or who weren’t the Dwarf to be able to handle unsprung traps (not much point searching if your only option is just to walk into it!)?

If that is the case then why not just let all Heroes have the disarm ability and just make the Toolkit and Dwarf get a bonus (like I have done).

Because the Dwarf’s disarm trap ability is unique and that would spoil that.

1. It isn’t unique any Hero for the cost of a mere 250GC can also have this “unique” ability
2. Why does it have to be unique, no other Hero special abilities are unique, the Barbarian gets a better starting weapon, by anyone else can buy a Broadsword (sorry Wizard). The Wizard can cast spells, so can the Elf, but the Wizard can do it better, everyone can attack but someone who purchases better weapons can do it better, everyone gets defend dice but someone who purchases more armour can do it better and so on.
Maybe our Dwarf could just have a Tool Kit as a bonus starting equipment and no special ability at all...

(One of the reasons that toolkits never seem to get purchased in US Edition is because expanded the ‘jump’ functionality to cover unsprung traps undermines the function of the toolkit, that in UK Edition was there so that Heroes that were not the Dwarf could handle unsprung traps

Odds comparison handling unsprung traps (US Edition)

Jump
Roll a combat die, success on anything but a skull, failure on anything else, so 50% chance of success (I always found it a little strange that whilst the die and the odds on this are exactly the same as the disarm with a toolkit the die faces used are the opposite)

Disarm
Dwarf - roll a combat die, success on anything but a black shield, failure on anything else, so 83% chance of success
Other Hero with toolkit - roll a combat die, success on anything but a skull, failure on anything else, so 50% chance of success
Other Hero without toolkit – can’t attempt it

So for a Dwarf the option to jump an unsprung trap makes no sense from an odds point of view. For a Hero with a Toolkit, whilst the odds are the same why would you choose to leave an unsprung trap in play, with the risk that you or one of your companions might set it off later, so that makes no sense

So the only time it would make sense if for a Hero without a toolkit, he has no other option, unless he waits for the Dwarf or a toolkit-equipped Hero to arrive (assuming the party has one or the other still living) so let him disarm with lower odds that the Dwarf or Tool Kit wielder

What exactly stops a Hero that spots a trap trigger, like a tripwire or weighted square attached to a falling block in the corner of a corridor, from having a go at disarming it anyway, he has nothing to lose, especially if there is no way round and the Dwarf is pushing up daisies...but the rules say NO, that isn't very realistic...

What if you add a cruel and malicious Goblin to the above example, placed around the corner adjacent to the trapped tile with no intention of advancing?

Would this attempt count as an 'uncommon feat' under your rules Kurgan and if so would that get a 50% chance of success? If so then that would be the same odds as a Tool Kit and 250GC cheaper!

Bareheaded Warrior: You actually summed it up pretty well. Trap jumping is for when the hero(es) lack a tool kit, the trap blocks their path, and the Dwarf is unavailable. I don't at all see what is problematic about this idea, especially for beginning heroes. The first several quests in the game system really aren't that generous with the gold, especially if the party plays conservatively with their treasure searches. For my coin, I'm going to work on upgrading weapons and armor before worrying about a somewhat pricey tool kit. After all, fighting monsters is pretty much guaranteed while facing path-blocking traps without a dwarf has a vastly lesser probability.

The goblin standing directly behind the trap and refusing to move is just a case of Zargon being a deliberate phallus. And really, you would have a hero step on a trap, spot it, and deactivate it on the fly... all while adjacent to a monster? That's some pretty slick movie heroics from a character who can't even accept a weapon or potion being handed to them while they're under threat.

I guess this probably is a good moment to summarise, so the situation is, Hero (who is not the Dwarf – at least 3 out of 4, and doesn’t have a toolkit – and lets face it who does?) encounters an unsprung trap that cannot be moved around, common enough in most corridors, doorways and similar.

Two proposed solutions

1. Expand Disarm functionality so that ALL Heroes can disarm a trap (unsprung trap), but the Dwarf and those armed with a Toolkit get a bonus

This could be a standard 5+, with the Dwarf getting a +2 and the Toolkit giving a +1 (and some Quests state that traps are particularly well hidden, in those cases 6+ as standard) – this is my preference but as always open to suggestions.

This approach could work equally well with different numbers, standard 4+, +1 Dwarf, +1 Toolkit for example (I generally try to shy away from 50-50 odds, either the odds should be in your favour 3+ or not in your favour 5+ as a general principle, but again that is just me, and also I see disarming a trap and harder and more through than just ‘dodging’ it so if ‘jumping’ is a 4+ then disarm should be a 5+)

I get your point made in the previous post about too much in one turn, and would add a new amendment to my proposal that attempting to disarm a trap ends your turn whether successful or not (if not it would trigger the trap ending your turn anyway – apart from the Spear Trap but I’ve removed that inconsistency in my own rules anyway)

2. Expand the SE rules for jumping pits and similar obstacles to cover jumping unsprung traps (as per US Edition-ish)

Need to consider the following:

Odds

In general jumping an unsprung trap and leaving it active is less thorough than disarming it, so the chances of success for disarming must be lower than for jumping

Trap Types

Need to consider exactly which unsprung trap types can be jumped, and which can’t, are the odds for jumping the same – Spear, Pit, Falling Block, Furniture (these may not all be the same) traps, also need to cover trap in the base game that are present but not explicitly called out – traps that spring when you open a door, the traps that cause rocks to fall from the ceiling/roof but don’t result in a blocked square (I label these ‘Deadfall traps’ in HQ Gold but they exist without a distinct name in vanilla HQ) and need to consider new traps types introduced by expansions – Swinging Blade, Swinging Axe, Wandering Monster Traps and so on. Can those that cannot be disarmed, be jumped?

Blind Jumping

Discussed as an option by HQ designers but never implemented, logically if you can jump over a square that has been indicated as potentially trapped, then you can jump over a square that you might have reason to believe is trapped, even if you haven’t searched and discovered an unsprung trap (the obvious example being a square behind a door)

Double Jumping

Some trap in expansions, like the ‘long pit trap’ could be discovered and potentially jumped the long way round, that is two squares in width, does a search reveal a ‘dodgy’ floor that is two squares long, what are the odds of jumping it, does a failure result in you being in the first or second square (and can you blind-double jump)

Unsprung Traps in Corner
Not actually covered in the US rules although that may be considered ‘rule lawyering’ but need to consider jumping unsprung traps with or without a monster in the landing square(s)