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Jumping on the bandwagon

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby burglekutt » Wednesday August 23rd, 2023 7:16pm

Been thinking that Heros should be able to climb IN & OUT of PitTraps and that PitTraps in general get a raw deal all together in this game.

They're usually used only once in a corridor at the beginning of a quest where they HAVE to be "Disarmed or jumped" & don't usually need to be crossed again, or worse they're in rooms where they can be walked around/avoided.

It would not be wise to put one in front of a Chest or SecretDoor for obvious reasons (unless you wanna create a new mechanic for heroes to stand on each others shoulders while they Disarm/Open said Chest or SecretDoor) lol & Zargon rarely wants a PitTrap on the other side of a door either do to scaring the players into "slowing down" or can't search with monsters present anyway etc.

Who on earth would put a PitTrap at the end of a Quest when one or two Heroes only have 1BodyPoint left?
That would be an embarrassing conclusion to an otherwise great adventure!

Im saying the PitTraps use is very restricted & It shouldn't surprise us that we only see Pit Traps being used once or twice a Quest or in areas where it can be avoided.

I say cripple a hero's Movement/Turn instead so that the PitTrap can be used anywhere, anytime, especially at the end of a Quest if you wanna slow your players down while they're being chased. They'll wish later on that they had disarmed that PitTrap!
.
Climb in n out = Turn ends in the Pit. You then lose 1d6 to movement to get out.

JUMP = Don't roll a Skull.

Dwarf = Don't roll a WhiteShield to Disarm.
With Tool Kit = Don't roll a BlackShield.

Other Heroes = Don't roll a Skull to Disarm.
With Tool Kit = Don't roll a WhiteShield.

PitTraps already do a point of damage to the first hero that fails to disarm it & I don't like that it can keep doing that to all Hero's, or worse that the Hero's might have to pass it again.

I'm also personally trying to think of a way for hero's & monsters to push each other INTO Traps during combat, gonna take me a while to think of the mechanics for that though:)
Last edited by burglekutt on Friday September 8th, 2023 2:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Thursday August 24th, 2023 3:49am

Note: HQ Gold Edition is my own ruleset

There is an important distinction here between pits and pit traps. Pits are holes in the ground, with spikes/stakes if you take the tile image at face value, pit traps are a pit that is hidden in some way so that there is a risk of falling in. The same distinction as between falling block traps and a fallen block.

Under SE rules a pit trap cannot be disarmed or jumped (search for traps and secret doors results in the pit automatically being placed on the board, as does stepping on it) but a pit can be removed used the disarm feature and can be jumped, under NA rules a pit trap CAN be disarmed or jumped, and a pit can be jumped but not removed (and under Gold rules a pit trap can be disarmed but not jumped and a pit can be jumped but not removed)

In most Game System quests the way in is also the way out, so generally pits at the beginning of quests DO have to be jumped again on the way out (if they haven't been removed under SE rules), which I consider a disadvantage, as you say a hero dying, having achieved the objective, from a failed jump is anti-climatic but I consider that a flaw in the dungeon design, a long back track to the entrance as the only exit rather than providing another alternative exit nearer to the end, rather than a flaw with pits themselves.

Pit traps found in rooms that can be walked around or otherwise avoided, is a weakness in both SE and NA editions, but is resolved under the Gold ruleset as there is the possibility of stepping on it as part of normal movement and the guaranteed stepping on it as part of searching, assuming players search a room which they generally do to get the gold, both of which lead to a disarm or trigger situation.

Loss of movement

Under all three rulesets triggering a pit trap, or failing a jump ends your movement so there is already an impact on movement, and disarming, even successfully, under Gold ruleset also ends your movement. If you consider a pit, rather than a pit trap, a successful jump doesn't impact on your movement but the odds of all 4 heroes successfully jumping it are low 1/16 so the chances are at least one or maybe two heroes will fail the jump and fall in ending their movement. So under existing rules on average a pit trap costs a hero the loss of one die of movement and potentially several heroes the loss of one die of movement. Increasing that movement penalty will have no impact (aside from slowing the game down) when monsters are not present, and if monsters are present, the loss of initiative is far more significant that the loss of movement.

Occupied pit traps

Under both SE and Gold you cannot end your turn on a square occupied by another figure, which by extension means that you cannot jump an occupied pit (as failure would result in you sharing the square), so a pit once occupied causes players behind to have to queue (further loss of movement). A special exception was made here in the NA edition, which feels contrived, and I don't really understand why as it makes pits less effective.

Loss of Initiative

You can place pit traps behind doors in any edition (although it might be considered tricksy behaviour),but in HQ Gold the handling of traps is exactly the same wherever they are placed I often do place them at the entrance to a room (I say often, that is relative I generally only use 2-3 pit traps in a single quest, otherwise it lacks variety, plenty of other trap types are available, but at least one pit or other trap is likely to be behind a door) because of the loss of initiative that it causes which has a significant impact.

Imagine your heroes rushing a room with 3 Orcs, Barbarian goes in first and probably kills one Orc, Dwarf follows up getting the second, Elf perhaps gets the third with an assist from the Wizard, chances are that the EWP will be lucky to have a monster left on his turn to get a hit in.

Now imagine the same scenario but with a pit trap on the first square of the room, Barbarian charges in and falls in the pit ending his turn, other heroes can't get into the room, so missile attacks aside they are limited in their capacity to do anything, then on EWPs turn all 3 Orcs get to attack the Barbarian and he gets to roll one less combat die in defence. The loss of initiative here is most definitely significant!

In terms of character being able to push others into pits, try some of the ones discussed on the Houserule: Push Back topic
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

HQ Editions: 1989 Classic Edition (First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE]), 1990 NA Remake [NA], 2021 Reprint [21]

HQ Golden Rules Rule Fixes based on the Classic edition.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby burglekutt » Saturday September 16th, 2023 1:23pm

I didn't know about a Pit with spikes in it. From what you say it has to be jumped... What quest is it in so I can look it up?

I like the idea of a single Search covering everything but am having trouble understanding how Disarming Traps fits in with it. Are you forcing the hero who made the search have to disarm the trap by placing him in the Trap square? What if there are two traps?
Clarify please, thanks.
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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Saturday September 16th, 2023 2:04pm

burglekutt wrote:I didn't know about a Pit with spikes in it. From what you say it has to be jumped... What quest is it in so I can look it up?

I like the idea of a single Search covering everything but am having trouble understanding how Disarming Traps fits in with it. Are you forcing the hero who made the search have to disarm the trap by placing him in the Trap square? What if there are two traps?
Clarify please, thanks.


Sorry I'm causing confusion, I was discussing elsewhere the idea of Pit Traps with Spikes / Stakes that do extra damage, as a home brew idea (along with mantraps...) and got mixed up, the official pit traps do not have stakes in them, just be careful if you ever play any quests with me as the EWP!

Back to searching.

So, if you move onto a square that is trapped (or attempt to open a door or chest that is trapped), then you must roll to "detect and disarm", failure means that the trap is activated and you suffer the consequences, whether you succeed or fail it ends your turn.

Searching a room, includes movement ("assumed movement" but still movement) so if a hidden trap is within the room, you are moved onto that square (or the nearest if there is more than one hidden trap) and must follow exactly the same process (why complicate things with a different one), you must roll to "detect and disarm" failure means that the trap is activated and you suffer the consequences, whether you succeed or fail it ends your turn (and your search attempt, but another search attempt can be made by another hero or the same hero on another turn until the room has been successfully searched i.e. a treasure card is drawn).
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

HQ Editions: 1989 Classic Edition (First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE]), 1990 NA Remake [NA], 2021 Reprint [21]

HQ Golden Rules Rule Fixes based on the Classic edition.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby burglekutt » Saturday September 16th, 2023 5:11pm

Bareheaded Warrior wrote: you are moved onto that square (or the nearest if there is more than one hidden trap) and must follow exactly the same process
what if the hero doesn't have a tool kit or would prefer the Dwarf to do it?
This could be deadly if its the last room in a quest & the hero searching has only one BodyPoint.

Is your system forcing the Heros to confront & disarm each trap in a room before they can get the treasure? If so, I see the other heroes waiting around for the Dwarf to disarm the three trapped squares spread about the room, which would take three different turns for the Dwarf to disarm.
Its tuff for me to understand this.

I agree that a hero who wants to disarm a trap should just be placed on it though & shouldn't require a movement roll.

Speaking of Disarming, what is your system for that as well as your "Jump" system? What dice do you use?
Last edited by burglekutt on Sunday September 17th, 2023 12:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Sunday September 17th, 2023 3:08am

All heroes can disarm, if you are moving through a dungeon and suddenly realise that you have snagged yourself on a tripwire or the slab under your feet is moving suspiciously then you are going to have a go at making it safe, the only alternative would be to just go with the flow and take the damage, which would always be the worse option, so have a go, you have nothing to lose.

If a hero prefers the dwarf to disarm traps then let the Dwarf lead the way.

Yes, moving around the dungeon with only 1 BP could be deadly, in what ruleset should moving round the dungeon with 1BP be safe?

Yes, all traps in a room would end up being disarmed before you drew a treasure card, but no issue with waiting around, the first hero searches and finds a trap, attempts to disarm it, ending his search attempt, next hero makes a search attempt finds treasure card, they move on.

Disarming a trap is disarming a trap there is no movement involved. You step onto a trap through normal movement (which has a roll) or through assumed movement (part of searching that doesn't have a roll), my detect and disarm roll makes no changes to either form of movement that are already in the game.

I use the same method for all "mechanisms" that aren't combat or damage (keeps it simple, consistent and easy to learn/remember), roll # combat dice, score at least one :blackshield: to succeed

Jump = Roll 4 combat dice, at least one :blackshield: to succeed

Disarm = Roll 2 combat dice, at least one :blackshield: to succeed

Dwarf gets to roll two extra dice and Tool Kit holder gets to roll one extra die.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

HQ Editions: 1989 Classic Edition (First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE]), 1990 NA Remake [NA], 2021 Reprint [21]

HQ Golden Rules Rule Fixes based on the Classic edition.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby burglekutt » Monday September 18th, 2023 1:59pm

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:Disarm = Roll 2 combat dice, at least one :blackshield: to succeed

Dwarf gets to roll two extra dice and Tool Kit holder gets to roll one extra die.

Isn't two CDice low for a starting hero? I thought you'd want to at least start a hero out with a 50/50 chance to Disarm.

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:Odds of success based on number of combat dice rolled
• 1 = 0.167 ~1/6
• 2 = 0.306 ~2/6
• 3 = 0.421
• 4 = 0.518 ~3/6
• 5 = 0.598
• 6 = 0.665 ~4/6
If I'm understanding these numbers right, shouldn't it be:
A)
Dwarf = 5 CDice, With Tool Kit = 6.
Other heroes = 4 CDice, Tool Kit = 5.

Or at the least:
B)
Dwarf = 4 CDice, Tool Kit = 5.
Other heros = 3 CDice, Tool Kit = 4.
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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Tuesday September 19th, 2023 3:48am

For me the beauty of applying this "roll # combat dice, score a :blackshield: to pass" mechanism is that it gives one single, simple, consistent mechanism to handle all non-combat (and non-damage) rolls in HQ: disarm (both physical traps and magic traps), opening stone doors, reading out runes, opening jammed doors, jumping a pit, jumping a chasm, breaking a spell effect, picking a lock, etc, etc. I'm less worried out the exact number of dice you need to roll in a given situation as that is easily tweaked.

That said, my logic for the "basic" disarm being 2 combat dice, is that it is a two-part activity, to be successful you need to both spot the trap trigger (assume 50% chance) AND successfully make it safe (assume 50% chance), failing to do either means the trap is sprung. 50% x 50% = 25% hence 2 combat dice.

Traps are usually infrequent and generally low 1-2 BP loss, so making them a little harder to avoid seems reasonable and it finally gives the party a reason to buy the Tool Kit, and an incentive to let the Dwarf lead.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

HQ Editions: 1989 Classic Edition (First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE]), 1990 NA Remake [NA], 2021 Reprint [21]

HQ Golden Rules Rule Fixes based on the Classic edition.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby burglekutt » Saturday October 7th, 2023 3:25pm

Trying to understand your system BHwarrior: Here is the scenario:

All the Heros are in the room where they killed all the monsters. The Wizard "searches" and finds two Spear Traps in each corner of the room, a trapped Chest in another corner & a SecretDoor.

Which Trap is the wizard placed on that he must immediately disarm? I'm guessing the closest one to him. Whether he succeeds or fails his turn is over.

The Barbarian now performs a "Search" & is also placed on a Trap to disarm. Probably the closest Trap to him as well.
The Dwarf on the next Trap etc?

One of these three got the treasure in the Chest whether they disarmed the Trap or took a BodyPoint damage I'm guessing.

With all the Traps disarmed, the Elf performs a "Search" & pulls a Treasure Card, then moves on through the SecretDoor...

Is this right?
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Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Friday October 13th, 2023 10:43am

burglekutt wrote:Trying to understand your system BHwarrior: Here is the scenario:

All the Heros are in the room where they killed all the monsters. The Wizard "searches" and finds two Spear Traps in each corner of the room, a trapped Chest in another corner & a SecretDoor.

Which Trap is the wizard placed on that he must immediately disarm? I'm guessing the closest one to him. Whether he succeeds or fails his turn is over.

The Barbarian now performs a "Search" & is also placed on a Trap to disarm. Probably the closest Trap to him as well.
The Dwarf on the next Trap etc?

One of these three got the treasure in the Chest whether they disarmed the Trap or took a BodyPoint damage I'm guessing.

With all the Traps disarmed, the Elf performs a "Search" & pulls a Treasure Card, then moves on through the SecretDoor...

Is this right?


Not quite.

1) The Wizard searches and finds the nearest trap to him, let's say one of the Spear traps, he is placed on that square, does a disarm roll, which either successfully disarms the trap OR sets the trap off and he suffers the consequences, either way that ends his turn and his search attempt

2) Next Hero, say Barbarian, then searches, finding the other Spear Trap same process

3) Next Hero, say Dwarf, searches finding the Secret Door as there are no remaining traps in the room*, he is placed adjacent to the now open door and his turn ends with the contents of the room or corridor being laid out

4) Next Hero, say Elf, searches the room and as there are no traps or secret doors, he draws the treasure card and the room is marked off as searched.

*The trapped chest is a trapped chest and is handled via the opening a chest rule "loot" and is entirely independent from searching the room, any hero can move adjacent to the chest and, as an action, 'loot' it, and in this example as it is trapped then they'll have to perform a disarm roll, either disarming the trap or setting it off, and they get whatever is listed in the chest.

It sounds long-winded when you type it out, but it rapidly becomes intuitive and what proportion of rooms have 2 traps, a secret door and a trapped chest, very few.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

HQ Editions: 1989 Classic Edition (First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE]), 1990 NA Remake [NA], 2021 Reprint [21]

HQ Golden Rules Rule Fixes based on the Classic edition.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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