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Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Wednesday January 4th, 2023 12:22pm
by Kurgan
lestodante wrote:about "how the hero is dead", there can be situations in which the corpse of the fallen hero can't be available:
Barbarian has fallen into a chasm and his body is lost forever...
Dwarf has the Elixir of Life, he doesn't need the corpse of the barbarian as he only need to think to the hero to resurrect and in a glimpse of light the barbarian will return.

That is a much cleaner solution, I was thinking of the "Great quest to the other side of the earth" where the barbarian's body comes screaming out the other side of the world (which happens to be magically hollow), and the others have chance to capture him in a net. It will be a long and perilous journey (the next quest begins with their ship having landed on the foreign shore...).

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Wednesday January 4th, 2023 5:06pm
by Bareheaded Warrior
Cleaner and simpler but is it complete?

Does our Barbarian drop from the top of the screen naked (a little poetic license there I'm referring to him re-appearing with only his starting equipment) or as he departed?

If it is the former (which is fine and just means that the replacement starter Barbarian arrives now instead of Between Quests) then the rule needs to state that and also needs to be modified so that the Elixir can only be used in the same Quest as the Hero died (otherwise you end up with an extra Barbarian)

If it is the latter then the rule needs to state that, and you would also need to modify the rules around recovering equipment from dead heroes* otherwise as soon as they get the Elixir of Life the whole party will just dump all their equipment on the Wizard, kill him, recover all their equipment from his corpse and then use the Elixir to get the Wizard returned with a full duplicate set of the parties equipment...two Spirit Blades, two Borin's Armour and so on

*By modify I mean you would probably have to scrap rules allowing the recovery of equipment from dead heroes and that would have a significant effect on the game as the Elixir is rare so most of the time the dead hero will remain dead (again not necessarily a bad idea but more modifications and more potential unintended consequences)

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Thursday January 5th, 2023 12:53am
by Kurgan
I for one think it would make an interesting storyline with the "Thomas Riker" Barbarian having a rivalry with his "younger twin brother."

I haven't seen you before... :barbarian:
I was saving the Empire from evil while you were still in short pants, junior :barbarian:
We're both still wearing short pants, 'old man.' :barbarian:
Hey, toss me that sword, I might show you how to use it :barbarian:
Anytime, I'd like to see you try to keep up! :barbarian:

The elixir doesn't duplicate equipment. Heroes can't kill each other (except perhaps in the case where one of them has gone under the influence of "Command").
So no "infinite gold by team killing and looting the body" loophole in the NA rules anyway.

Would a revived wizard get all of his spells back? I don't think so. I would say if he cast those spells while alive they are used up until the next quest (based on a device, not an inborn ability... if anything his magic is just his aptitude in interpreting the magic books or whatever to get them to do what he wants until they need recharging).

Yes, I would agree that if a starting Barbarian died, and monsters stole his loot, he'd come back alive without armor and just his bare hands (1 CD) to fight with, not magically also spawn a broadsword. If it happens between quests, he doesn't get bonus equipment, he gets whatever the other heroes give him or uses the gold they gave him to buy more stuff.

The Elixir of Life is a chance to revive a dead hero. The normal process is that you make a new character. That means a new Barbarian comes in with a new name but otherwise he's identical to the old barbarian you once controlled, albeit with his starting gear only. Yes, I see it being used more like in the same quest, shortly after the guy died, as opposed to reviving a hero that died 15 quests ago. Would there be two barbarians then?

The game was originally built for 4 heroes. So in theory you could have more, but later packs say you can only have one of each character type in a quest at a time (not counting NPCs) so you would pick which barbarian went on which quest. It matters little unless you want to split up the gear and give some to each (I guess for safety, since some of it could be lost forever to monsters, except Artifacts which theoretically Zargon brings back early in the next quest as a special treasure). It may seem like a cheat, but players get attached to their heroes and want the satisfaction of knowing Zargon didn't kill them... at least not forever. That's how I see it anyway. If one doesn't like the Elixir of Life, there's always the EU ruleset which only uses it once (in Dark Company) and it functions very differently there only bringing the hero back with 1 BP.

Maybe you could get around the "twin brother" issue by saying he revives at home or something (so you can pick him up when the next quest starts). Or, yipee kye aye... suddenly there are two Barbarians (and at least one of you will control him plus your other character or characters). Pretty awesome! But you can't purposely kill a hero, hope you find the Elixir, then use it to revive him so you for a short time have double character tornado tag team action at summer slam brother!!! |_P *

(*then again, if it's about fun and coolness above all, if Zargon says it's okay, why the heck not...)

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Thursday January 5th, 2023 10:58am
by Bareheaded Warrior
Kurgan – I think we are talking at cross-purposes here, probably my own fault for not quoting from the post I was referring to.

With regards to Elixir of Life (official US version) – my working interpretation

• Hero is killed, living body on a specific square becomes dead body on same square. Any items carried is dropped on that square (as per standard official US edition rules)

• Elixir of Life is applied to dead hero by another Hero, dead body becomes living body on the same square. Any equipment in that square* would be automatically picked up by the now living Hero occupying that square (as per standard official US edition rules)

• *Any equipment that had been removed from that square in the intervening period, either by Monsters or Heroes, or lost, which could be all of it, would not be picked up automatically as it is no longer in that square (as per standard official US edition rules)

For the purposes of HeroQuest Gold I have added a couple more ‘clarifications/modifications’ to the Elixir of Life

• Must be applied by a Hero, in an adjacent square to the dead Hero, on his turn as an action with no monsters on the squares surrounding either Hero. (This mirrors the ‘passing item’ rules in HQ Gold)
• The item will only work within the current Quest, the one in which the hero died

From earlier comments I don’t think you would have any objections to the above (although if I’m wrong then feel free to correct me!)

I hadn’t considered the spell situation with spell casters, but I would agree they would get back the spells that were remaining when they were killed. Good spot

I know that Heroes cannot kill other Heroes in the US Edition but that doesn’t stop devious players from using this exploit by loading up with the groups equipment and then walking into a room full of Dread Warriors whilst the others watch from the door. I doubt many of us would play with such players, but it is worth bearing these kind of exploits in mind (particularly when you consider Companion App style apps that need logic applied, although the current one is obviously designed to be very trusting)

The questions that I posted previously were in response to the new/re-imagined/changed/re-interpretation of the Elixir of Life that was posted by lestodante, not around the official US edition rules

lestodante wrote: about "how the hero is dead", there can be situations in which the corpse of the fallen hero can't be available:
Barbarian has fallen into a chasm and his body is lost forever...
Dwarf has the Elixir of Life, he doesn't need the corpse of the barbarian as he only need to think to the hero to resurrect and in a glimpse of light the barbarian will return.

It does look cleaner and simpler at first glance but that may be because it isn’t complete, for example.

• When the Hero magically reappears, does he return with a) no items, b) only starting Hero items, c) all the items that he was in possession of when he died?
• Where does the Hero return to when the Elixir of Life is activated a) the square he was in when he died b) a square adjacent to the Hero activating the Elixir of Life c) somewhere else?
• There is no restriction around when you can use the Elixir of Life in the new model, without that restriction it could be used to bring back a Barbarian that died in an earlier Quest that had already been replaced with a fresh Barbarian leaving you with one Barbarian too many.

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Thursday January 5th, 2023 10:01pm
by Kurgan
It's pretty vague as is, I agree, so Zargon needs to make the call, especially if he thinks the Heroes are trying to exploit it to cheat or something.

I can imagine the sighs under that interpretation if the elixir is found in the next quest ("the search for spock") when the hero died in the previous one!

"Well obviously we dragged his body out of the dungeon to give him a proper burial but NOW we can bring him back, right???"
Zargon... sighs and says yes.

I say what's the point of having a "bring the hero back to life" trick if you don't get to use it. But I see the issue if they just whip it out randomly a long time after the death has happened and that hero has already been replaced in the middle of an adventure. In the Japanese quest the dead hero revives "at the temple" between quests. But when you get the magical Talisman of Lore, it pretty much assures that everyone has now infinite lives (but they lose that all important gold upon dying... do they also lose their "upgraded" body point maximums? I'm not sure).

But at a certain point you could say there's no difference between a new replacement hero and the deceased hero, other than perhaps sentimental attachment and less some odd gear/gold.

I think new rules or not the answer of where the gear goes when the hero dies is already logically answered by saying it falls where he fell, so it is either claimed by monsters or by the surviving good guys to be distributed as they see fit (if claimed by monsters, it is lost "forever" only artifacts being recycled into future quests as special treasure per the basic NA rules). Bringing the hero back to life to me wouldn't logically pull his gear back with him, but if one wanted to make that happen, sure why not. If the fear is that heroes will exploit this to get infinite weapons to sell back to the Armory to make infinite gold, I guess don't do it. Whether the one using the Elixir has to be on the exact where or adjacent to where his fellow died is also not specified by the Artifact, but if that mechanic is applied, sure, why not. That means if used between quests it either can't work or it just works invisibly (and perhaps more easily; now you don't have to walk back into the death trap he died in and have to worry about re-equipping him, but you do have another warm body to soak up some enemy damage and maybe take a few more of them with him next time).

I just imagine when you use the elixir, Zargon makes it up (if they need a reason) how the hero is back. They dragged his body back and poured it on him or however it works. Or the magic teleported him from his grave to where they are now. Maybe his physical form was reconstituted out of the original atoms or something totally miraculous. Maybe Mentor sent his servants to retrieve the body (thanks for clearing aside those monsters ahead of us, by the way!). I get the desire to make it more logical or complete with explanations.

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Monday March 6th, 2023 6:50pm
by Shark
For my house rules i have adopt the idea of ;-
Body points > 0 - your alive
Body Points = 0 - your unconscious
Body points < 0 your dying
I allow others to come to your aid on later turns but only if they were in the room when you lost you BP, and they have not left the room.
I also have introduced more equipment so have First Aid kits, which need a full turn and only restore 1 BP. They work on alive and unconscious. Only Spells and potions work on dying. Other hero’s have the option of carrying out an unconscious or dying Hero.
If you are left in a room alone and unconscious or dying then it is assumed you are dead, killed by wandering monsters and your body will not be found.

Oh and if you do recover from dying you lose 1 BP from your Max. So not something you want to do to often!

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Monday March 6th, 2023 9:33pm
by Zenithfleet
All of this discussion makes me relieved I'm an EU player! :shock:

As noted in the OP, in the EU rules if you reach 0 BP you die instantly, and that's that. I never realised how much simpler in rules design terms it was until I read this thread.

Things get a little nerve-wracking when you're at 3BP or below. Any random Orc can take you out with a lucky hit. Very Warhammer. Playing as the Wizard is an exercise in paranoia after the first scratch. :lol:

Of course, in practice, many players did do the 'last-minute potion drinking' exploit / house rule, as mentioned by the OP. But I feel like that's the equivalent of the free parking house rule in Monopoly--something that sounds great in theory but actually causes problems.

For what it's worth, though, GW's later Warhammer Quest had a rule where if you were reduced to 0 wounds (Body points), you were knocked unconscious. If you were still on 0 wounds at the end of the round (after every player had taken their turn), you died. Before that, you could be healed by yourself or someone else, although healing potions were fairly rare. However, certain especially scary monsters could deal damage to you at the VERY end of the turn if you were standing next to them, or poisoned by them, etc--which meant you couldn't heal any wounds that turn because you lost them AFTER your chance to use potions.

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Wednesday March 8th, 2023 6:23am
by The Admiral
Bareheaded Warrior wrote:This topic has already been touched upon in various other threads, but as far as I can tell usually as a side topic from the main event, so can be hard to locate from the subject, so I've made a dedicated topic.

The Problem (1)

US Edition introduced the following new rule section that wasn't in the UK/EU version on p22:

How A Hero Escapes Death

p22 As a Hero, if your Body Points have been reduced to zero, there are two situations where you can save yourself:

1) If you have a Healing Potion in your possession, you can immediately drink it. The potion will instantly raise your Body Points above zero, restoring you to life.

2) If you are a spellcaster with a Healing Spell, and you have not already performed an action on your turn, you can be healed by casting the spell on yourself.

Important! After your Body Points have reached zero, you can never be saved by a fellow Hero's spell or potion. It will be too late. You will have died by the time it is your fellow Hero's turn - the only time when he can cast a spell or give you a potion.

Prior to this edition, the general interpretation was that being reduced to zero Body Points killed you straight out.

I think the key term here is 'interpretation'. I took the wording of the EU potion to mean "at any time" i.e. when reduced to zero BP was okay. This was my interpretation. The US rules, in my humble opinion, merely clarified that issue to avoid any misunderstanding that might result from an erroneous interpretation.

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Wednesday March 8th, 2023 8:28am
by Bareheaded Warrior
I agree, an interpretation/exploit/loophole, but my intention when starting this post was two-fold.

1. Healing Potion Save

Whether you were playing what I will refer to as the “strict” interpretation of the EA Second Edition rules (that is being reduced to zero Body points meant that you were eliminated, whether you had a potion of Healing on you or not) and therefore the new rule in the NA Edition is a change OR whether you were playing what I will refer to as the “open” interpretation of the EA Second Edition rules (where you could, in the instant of being reduced to zero Body points that is ‘dying’, you could quaff a potion of Healing and restore 4 Body points) in which case the new rule in the NA Edition was a clarification OR you were already playing the NA Edition in which case it wasn’t a change, a number of people have objected to this rule.

The most common reasons given are;

a) It removes the motivation to ever quaff a healing potion in any circumstances other than dying, as waiting until you are dying not only saves your life (a not insignificant benefit) but also guarantees you get the maximum return from your potion be that the full 4 BP or D6 BP

b) As heroes, aside possibly from novices, are likely to keep a potion of healing on them at all times (in light of above, and Alchemists Shop and the ‘potion hoarder’ reputation of the NA rules) it effectively takes the peril out of the game in most circumstances as you can wander around safe in the knowledge that whatever the dungeon throws at you, you have a bonus life in your pocket

My proposed modification to the rule was to allow the Healing Potion Save but if a potion of healing was quaffed whilst ‘dying’ then it would only restore 1 Body point. This modification fixes point (a) above as the benefit to taking one earlier is so that you get the full 4 or D6 Body points restored, if you don’t wait until you are dying and it also mitigates point (b) above as whilst it will save you from death, if that death has been caused by a large ferocious monster, then you will still be stood next to said monster, with only 1 Body point remaining (and no more potions of healing), giving you and the party just one single turn to eliminate said monster before he finishes you off for good (hence restoring some of the tension that the “new” rule or interpretation, player exploit, GM charity removed.

2. Healing Spell Save

The NA edition didn’t just “provide a clarification” it also introduced a new rule that I had considered previously in the EA Second Edition of the Healing Spell save and this new rule is, in my opinion, sufficiently badly worded that it is either, under a ‘strict’ interpretation, seems impossible to ever get into a situation in which the rule could be applied, or under a more ‘open’ interpretation is just very confusing, for example

I am a spell caster with a healing spell, on my turn I do nothing. On the GM’s turn I get reduced to zero BP by a monster attack, so can I now cast the healing spell on myself to save myself from death, as I didn’t take an action on my last turn (even though that turn ended long ago), even though the only time I’m allowed to cast a spell is on my turn. Or do I have to wait until it is my turn to then cast the spell on myself and heal, presumably not, because after the GM’s turn the chances are that it will be another players’ turn and “You will have died by the time it is your fellow Hero’s turn.”

So, it appears that this allows a spellcaster with a healing spell to cast that spell on themselves on someone else turn (superseding the usual rules to the contrary, it even contradicts the next block of text that states that the only time a hero can cast a spell is on their turn).
If that is the case then there is a few of issues (I’m not expecting anyone to answer all these, it is just a sample to give a flavour of the types of questions that this ‘special exception’ might start to generate).

Does the action that I am using to cast the spell, use up the action that I didn’t use from the last turn, if so how else could I use this precedent to ‘save an action for future use’, does it come out of my action allowance for the next turn, it doesn’t state that anywhere, if I can use this free action on someone else turn to cast a healing spell on myself, then why can’t I use it to cast the same spell on another dying hero, or maybe even a different spell entirely, if not why not? What happens if I use it on myself after I’ve been reduced to zero BP by a monster, and then the next monster attacks me and reduces me to zero BP, can I save it until the end of the GMs turn, and heal all damage? What if on my turn I move and set off a falling block trap that reduces me to zero BPs and ends my turn, can I still cast my healing spell to save myself on the next players turn, if I can, then couldn't I use my healing spell save on another player on their turn?

And a practical problem, “I’m using my healing spell to save myself”, “but you can’t you did an action on your last turn”, “no I didn’t”, “yes, you attacked that skeleton”, “no I didn’t that was on the turn before”, “why don’t we just toss a coin to decide whether the hero that you have been developing and nurturing over the past few years is eliminated?” or do we need a VAR for our games?
My proposed modification here is to just scrap that rule as I don’t really understand the need to add it in the first place, so for me there is little point in trying to improve the clarity of a rule that isn’t needed.

Re: Healing: How A Hero Escapes Death

PostPosted: Wednesday March 8th, 2023 4:25pm
by wallydubbs
I've actually seen the 2nd rule happen before. In Malar's Maze, the Wizard ran under the Falling Block Trap and was reduced to zero BP. She looked up from her paper and said "I'm dead". I rightly pointed out that she had yet to use her action that turn and could indeed heal herself.
So although the wording COULD be confusing regarding past turns, I feel this is the type of scenario they meant.