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Search – The Binding Topic

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Thursday April 6th, 2023 2:54am

This topic is really intended to be about identifying and fixing problems within the official rules rather than adding new house rules to expand the game, which I think is what your suggestion is aimed at (because SE rules have no concept of searching furniture - you open chests like you open doors) and under the NA rules searching for treasure covers a whole room irrespective to what if any furniture is present including chests)

I was going to ask you to post your suggestion onto an existing topic around searching furniture but despite seeing this kind of suggestion before a few times I can't find a thread that covers it explicitly, although a few mention it. Ironically I guess this means that you will need to search on search and see if you have better luck finding one than me or failing that start a new topic to cover "Searching Furniture" and to be fair it is probably a good topic!
Last edited by Bareheaded Warrior on Sunday April 30th, 2023 6:59am, edited 1 time in total.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Thursday April 6th, 2023 10:51am

Second Edition - Searching for and Handling Traps

Under First Edition all traps do 1BP damage, under Second Edition this was partially revised so Spear and Pit Traps do 1 BP, Falling Block Traps do 3AD damage, Chest Traps – default generic ones still do 1 BP, other in-quest note examples have variable damage like 2AD, this inconsistency is not good, so I would suggest reviewing these but I’ll come to that later

Searching for (Secret Doors and) Traps under SE automatically finds all traps within the search area AND automatically sets them off, at least it does so for Pit Trap and Falling Block Traps, for Spear Traps and Chest Traps, these are not automatically set off instead they are automatically rendered harmless (or "disarmed") when found.

So, if traps are automatically set off or rendered harmless under SE trap search then what does the disarm feature do?

SE Tool Kit Equipment Card wrote:Tool Kit
The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find. Roll one combat die. On a roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.
Cost 250 gold coins.


SE Rules of Play wrote:Trap tiles may be removed from the board by any character who has the Tool Kit equipment card and is adjacent to the trap.
The Dwarf may automatically remove any trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.


Problems with SE handling of traps?

1. Why is the Dwarf’s ability to remove triggered traps limited to one per turn when it isn’t an action (if it was then it would be only once per turn), all other non-actions are not limited, why this inconsistency?

2. If a Dwarf can remove a pit or a fallen block on his turn, not as an action but limited to only one per turn, and a hero equipped with a tool kit can remove any number of traps that he is adjacent to, so can the Dwarf if you equip him with Tool Kit (and it doesn’t say you can’t) can he automatically remove a trap tile once per turn automatically and as many others as he likes but with a roll?

3. Some Quests have been designed in such a way that removing a fallen block tile breaks the Quest, so either this ability for the both the Dwarf and any tool kit equipped hero needs to be changed, or those Quests redesigned.

4. There is no difference under SE between a fallen block and a blocked square tile so why do the rules treat them as though they are different?
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Thursday April 13th, 2023 9:11am

Turning to NA Edition for inspiration – what has changed in this area?

1. Change to split secret doors and traps into two separate searches – I don’t understand the logic of this decision and personally consider it a negative one, but it doesn’t impact on this topic so ignore for now.

2. Introduced a new tile for different tiles for Fallen Blocks and Blocked Squares (although the change to limit disarm to discovered but unsprung traps ONLY means that no distinction is needed as both types are treated exactly the same.

3. Change to Search for Traps so that instead of springing or making safe / disarming traps automatically it now reveals “suspect squares” that contain a trap trigger for traps like pit, spear and falling block traps, and indicates that a chest is “dangerous” if it is trapped, but leaves the handling of these outside of the search process, this would be better with the introduction of suspect square markers placed on the square in question, or under the chest, but that is easy to do.

4. Rulebook provides text for Zargon to read out when he reveals the location of the traps that indicates the trap type – whether it is a pit, falling block or spear trap. However, the expansions introduce new trap types and don’t provide any corresponding narrative text.

5. Changes to the methods of handling these “suspect square” tiles as below:

Handling suspect squares or suspect chests (under these modified rules I’m using the idea of a “suspect square tile” to avoid the mashed terminology in the NA Edition, for example “…any searched-for-and-found (but unsprung) trap.”

a) Avoid - you can just avoid them, may be an option but in certain situations you must handle them.

b) Disarm - Before you move declare that you are moving onto a suspect square to attempt to disarm and remove the trap. Roll a combat die, if you score a skull then you have set the trap off and suffer the effects, if not then the suspect square is removed.

Note 1: For the Dwarf the roll is as follows “if you score a black shield, you have set off the trap, otherwise the suspect square tile is removed.”

Note 2: It doesn’t state anywhere that the Dwarf cannot purchase the Tool Kit, but it implies that he can’t so I’m taking that assumption as if it were stated.

Note 3: The section around searching for traps in relation to trapped chests mentions the identification of a suspect chest, and tells you to refer to the disarm rules on page 21, the disarm rules on page 21, paraphrased above do not mention anything around disarming trapped chests, so the following is my ‘extrapolation’ of these missing rules (feel free to challenge these!)

Disarm - Before you move declare that you are moving onto a suspect square, or in the case of a suspect chest declare that you are moving adjacent to the chest, to attempt to disarm and remove the trap. Roll a combat die, if you score a skull then you have set the trap off and suffer the effects, if not then the suspect square tile is removed

c) If you can’t avoid the suspect square and you aren’t the Dwarf or equipped with a Toolkit, how do you handle this situation…

So, the Designers of the NA resolved this gap (c) by choosing to extend out the ‘jump’ functionality from the Second Edition so that you could now jump ‘suspect squares’ (at least where they weren’t a chest which presumably you just had to avoid or deliberately set it off) in addition to jumping pits whereas previously under SE rules you could only jump pits.

Now I prefer the extending current functionality as it is less likely to cause issues that introducing a new mechanism; however, this particular resolution fixes a few of the problems under SE but also introduces a few new ones.

1. The only option if you are not the Dwarf and are not equipped with the Tool Kit, when facing a trapped chest is to either avoid it and not get the contents or voluntarily set it off and suffer the consequences and get the contents. This doesn’t feel right to me, surely in this situation if you choose to take the risk of opening a chest that you already know is trapped then you would have a go at disarming it, you have nothing to lose.

2. Why do you need the complicated addition of declaring that you are intending to movement onto a suspect square in order to attempt to disarm it, what other possible reason would there be for moving onto a suspect square?

3. Under NA edition rules you don’t have to move adjacent to a chest in order to retrieve the contents, you just search the room for treasure, so why should you have to move adjacent to a trapped chest in order to disarm the trap.

This ruleset leads to some situations that range from the slightly odd to the really bizarre, some examples below.

A. Player 1 walks into an otherwise empty room, containing a chest, and being the cautious type, he stops just inside the door and uses his action to search for traps, revealing that the chest is indeed trapped. This ends his turn 1. On his next turn he uses his movement to move adjacent to the trapped chest and attempts to disarm the trap. For this example, let’s assume he is successful, and the nasty spring-loaded dart trap is now made safe. Using his action for the disarm ends his turn 2. Turn 3 he decides to move back to his former position by the door ending his movement and then uses his action to search for treasure, remotely picking up the treasure from the chest on his way out. Odd and slow, 3 turns in all.

B. Same scenario but once player 1 has, on his second turn, successfully disarmed the chest trap, the next player, player 2, moves into the room, ending his movement on the square just inside the door, and then uses his action to search for treasure, remotely stealing the contents of the now disarmed chest, literally right under the nose of player 1, from across the room. Again odd.

C. Same scenario but this time player 1 enters the room, moves to the square adjacent to the chest and then searches for traps, revealing the trapped chest and ending his turn. Player 2 then moves into the room, stopping on the square inside the door, and decides to use his action to search for treasure, this has 2 consequences, first it sets off the trapped chest, the spring loaded dart, zipping around the head of player 1, darting across the room and hitting player 2, second the 50gc held within the chest jumps out and the shower of gold coins whips passed the head of player 1 and darts across the room into the backpack of player 2. Player 1 is presumably dodging and weaving like Neo at this point, which may explain the lack of missile weapons in the hands of monster in the game system, as presumably they wouldn’t stand a chance of hitting our heroes…
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Thursday April 13th, 2023 9:23am

Hybrid Approach

I am proposing the following hybrid approach for the Second Edition.

1. Search for (Secret Doors) and Traps reveals trap location (marked using a suspect square tile, tile placed under chest for trapped chests) in the given area.

2. Heroes may avoid the suspect square (not open the suspect chest), if possible and they choose to, if not then they may attempt to disarm the trap.

3. To disarm the suspect square, which is now an action, you move onto the square (or adjacent to the chest and open it in the case of a trapped chest), no need to declare anything it is assumed that you are attempting a disarm, why else would you move onto a known trapped square or open a known trapped chest

4. Disarming takes place by rolling a red die. If you score 5 or more you have successfully disarmed the trap and the suspect square tile is removed, otherwise you set the trap off suffering the effects.

Note 1: Dwarf needs to score 3 or more to be successful due to his special ability.

Note 2: Tool Kit (irrespective to who is carrying it – Dwarf or another Hero) adds one to your disarm roll.

Note 3: Jumping remains something that you do to cross a pit.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Monday May 1st, 2023 4:17am

In addition to the changes discussed above there is another problem within the search rules listed on Polishing the Second Edition as Problem #4 No limit on the number of searches

Problem statement: There is nothing in the rules that state whether you can only search a given area for treasure or for traps and secret doors, once or an unlimited number of times. There are no markers provided to indicate that an area has been searched for treasure or for secret doors and traps and secret doors or for treasure, but in the case of searching for treasure allowing that to be unlimited creates a flaw that could be exploited by heroes simply searching the same area repeatedly until they have picked the treasure card pile clean of gold and then exit the Quest and purchase a load of equipment, then rinse and repeat.

Proposed changes: In the case of searching for traps and secret doors, this isn’t so much of a problem, if the same area is searched again then nothing will happen, only the player will waste an action. In the case of searching for treasure, once an area is searched, it must be recorded as searched by placing a tile (any tile face down will do) somewhere in the searched area to indicate that it has been searched. It cannot be searched for treasure again.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Saturday May 13th, 2023 5:31am

In light of the Polishing the SE topic I have reworked the original list of all the problems within the search and disarm traps rules for the SE as follows:

Problem #20 "Problems within the Search and Disarm Traps rules"

#20A 1. Traps in a row flaw
You can search in a single square width corridor and find (without having to handle) numerous traps, even though it would logically be impossible to get to the subsequent trap squares without having dealt with the first one in some way – this could be resolved by stating that your search ends with the nearest trap found within your search area, this logic is used in certain Quest notes but perhaps should be a standard rule rather than an exception

Searching for Multiple Traps

2. Poorly defined/inconsistent search area flaw - this is already covered under problem #3 Search range in passageways - RESOLVED
Search area isn’t really defined (aside from the searching for traps in a room bit, i.e. you have to be in a room to search for and locate a trap in a room), it isn’t clear whether you can be in a room – in the doorway for example – and perform a trap search and locate a trap on the (adjacent to you) first square in a corridor which is inconsistent but not prohibited expressly as far as I can tell and the search area in a corridor isn’t well defined but I assume it is a single ‘straight stretch of any length’ but there is no information around standing on a corner or other intersection between two corridors and searching both simultaneously

Corridors, treasure and traps


3. #20B Assumed movement ignores movement limits flaw
The assumed movement inherent in a trap search can be up to 25 squares long despite your basic maximum movement being 12 this is made even worst by the fact that you could, at a junction, use your action to ‘search for traps' with your assumed movement covering 25 squares in one direction and then roll and move up to 12 squares in another direction, your figure covering a total of 37 squares of movement (assumed and actual) in a single turn.

4. #20C Unrevealed Monsters flaw
The assumed movement could cross a T-junction and beyond where there are unrevealed monsters along the other arm of the T. You can discover traps located past the junction without revealing the monsters (as the movement is assumed) but paradox warning - if you then moved down the corridor to disarm a found trap you would discover the presence of the monsters and their presence should have prevented you from searching for the traps that you have already found.

Searching Corridors

5.Inconsistent search conditions flaw - This has been resolved under #14 Search for Treasure in passageways - RESOLVED
There are discrepancies between the descriptions of the conditions in which you can perform the three different searches in the original which make no sense. Search for treasure can be done when there are no monsters in the room, whereas searching for traps and searching for secret doors can only be done if there are no monsters visible to you, so if you are in a room with no monsters in that room but one stood in the doorway outside the room in the corridor then you would be able to search for treasure in that room but would not be able to search for secret doors or search for traps. In addition, only the “Search for Treasure” has the potential to spawn a Wandering monster outcome but neither of the other two search actions which again is inconsistent.

Searching with monsters present – allowed


6.#20D Traps behind the door flaw
In the official rules, there is a strange situation that occurs when a trap has been placed on the first square of a room on the Quest Map. As, under the official rules, you cannot search for a trap in a room without being in the room, and stepping into the room, will activate the trap, these become undetectable. For me, the issue with the “Traps on the other side of the door” logic isn’t that it feels unfair (although that is true), it is more that it feels unintended. I don’t get the feeling that the designers of the game set out with the intention of creating this situation, they simply wrote the searching for traps rules, and this surfaced through play as an unintended consequence that they highlighted in the rulebook so that players would have some guidance on how to handle the situation when they inevitably uncovered it.

Traps on the other side of the door
Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

7. Volume of searches flaw - this is already covered under #4 No limit on the number of searches - RESOLVED
In the US rules a room can be searched for treasure once by every Hero (although in the original UK/EU rules it was search once per room not once per Hero). This results in a volume of treasure found that leads the Heroes to max out on equipment in a brief period, causing advancement to stagnate. It also offers a considerable number of potential searches during the game, four treasure searches per room, plus a secret door search and a trap search – 6 search actions per room plus two additional searches for every corridor with a typical quest featuring maybe 8 rooms and a similar number of corridors that is a potential of over 60 searches, starts to feel like the game should have been named “Hero Search” and you have to keep track of them all!

Search for Treasure
Keeping track of who has searched


8. Handling Chests and Furniture flaw - this is already covered under #2 Handling chests - RESOLVED
In some official quests the layout of traps and chests implies that a Hero needs to be adjacent to a chest to open it, whereas in the official rules chests are a purely decorative indicator that it might be worth searching in this room - Separating chests out of the main search rules and putting them into a separate action resolves this issue.

Chests? How do they work?


9. Memorizing suspect trap locations - this is a NA only issue but may be relevant when we cover discussions for resolution later
This mechanism is weird, it encourages frustration and conflict. When a hero searches for traps, Zargon only points to the board which squares have a trap. Players may try to disarm or avoid 'suspect' squares only to find out it was not the right square, or may fall into a trap whilst moving to the square they thought was trapped. This is frustrating and often leads to conflict, "but that was the square you pointed at...", "no it wasn't, it was that square", "that one?", "no that one", "so can I climb out of this pit now and reset it so that I can try and disarm the correct square"?

Trap Disarming Error

10. Searching inside a pit flaw - this is a NA Edition issue only so not relevant for SE
Again this is inconsistent, you can search for treasure and secret doors “as though it was a distinct room in its own right” but if "it was a distinct room in its own right" then you would be able to search for traps. Why can’t you search for traps – because that makes no sense - how and why would anyone ever build a trap inside a pit, how would you mark it on the board and handle it, but that logic is equally true for secret doors in a pit, how and why would anyone ever locate a secret door inside a pit, fall in and risk death every time they want to use the door, have to avoid the stakes and reset the trap every time they exit the other way. If there is treasure in the pit then put it in the Quest Notes and you find it when you fall in.

Miscellaneous related topics

Topic around interpretation of Quest Notes that state no treasure in a given room

Search for Treasure Question

Topics around combining Trap and Secret Door searches in US rules

Searching for traps and secret doors
Searching for traps and secret doors (US)

Note: any moderators reading this, these two topics above could be combined...

Topic around falling block traps permanently trapping Heroes or permanently blocking the objective

Dead End Falling Block Traps
Falling block traps right after door, hero blocking way back

Topic around the logic behind how monsters interact with traps or don’t

Traps and Monster

Topic around Secret Doors (which side can they be found?)

Secret Doors

Mixed Topic

Search markers / disarm markers
Covers markers for found traps, searched rooms and also the volume of searches and furniture searches, so effectively problems 7,8 & 9[/quote]
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Saturday May 13th, 2023 6:52am

This leaves us with the following list of SE specific problems under the general umbrella Problem #20 "Problems within the Search and Disarm Traps rules"

#20A Traps in a row flaw

Problem statement:
You can search in a single square width corridor and find (without having to handle) numerous traps, even though it would logically be impossible to get to the subsequent trap squares without having dealt with the first one in some way – this could be resolved by stating that your search ends with the nearest trap found within your search area, this logic is used in certain Quest notes but perhaps should be a standard rule rather than an exception

Discussion link:

Searching for Multiple Traps

#20B Assumed movement ignores movement limits flaw

Problem statement:The assumed movement inherent in a trap search can be up to 25 squares long despite your basic maximum movement being 12 this is made even worst by the fact that you could, at a junction, use your action to ‘search for traps' with your assumed movement covering 25 squares in one direction and then roll and move up to 12 squares in another direction, your figure covering a total of 37 squares of movement (assumed and actual) in a single turn.

#20C Unrevealed Monsters flaw

Problem statement:The assumed movement could cross a T-junction and beyond where there are unrevealed monsters along the other arm of the T. You can discover traps located past the junction without revealing the monsters (as the movement is assumed) but paradox warning - if you then moved down the corridor to disarm a found trap you would discover the presence of the monsters and their presence should have prevented you from searching for the traps that you have already found.

Discussion link:

Searching Corridors

#20D Traps behind the door flaw

Problem statement: In the official rules, there is a strange situation that occurs when a trap has been placed on the first square of a room on the Quest Map. As, under the official rules, you cannot search for a trap in a room without being in the room, and stepping into the room, will activate the trap, these become undetectable. For me, the issue with the “Traps on the other side of the door” logic isn’t that it feels unfair (although that is true), it is more that it feels unintended. I don’t get the feeling that the designers of the game set out with the intention of creating this situation, they simply wrote the searching for traps rules, and this surfaced through play as an unintended consequence that they highlighted in the rulebook so that players would have some guidance on how to handle the situation when they inevitably uncovered it.

Discussion link:

Traps on the other side of the door
Potions, Traps and Throwing Weapons

#20E "Disarming" Traps removes the tile from the board

Problem statement:

Both the Dwarf and any Hero with the toolkit have the ability to remove the pit tile and the- blocked square tile from the board. These tiles are not traps but features that have been placed as a result of a trap being sprung (or are permanent features placed as part of dungeon exploration and as the same tiles are used there is no differentiation). "Disarming a trap" is a term used for making an unsprung trap safe, and should not involve removing dungeon features, which even if that was allowed, is not "disarming".

Discussion link: Search markers / disarm markers

#20F Removing the Blocked Square Tile from the board

Problem statement:

Daedalus wrote:
Bareheaded Warrior wrote:. . Any so many more problems, these traps are a minefield ... ba dum tss

Here's another for the IN box: Rules as written, a triggered falling block trap can be removed. Davane opened my eyes to this; I believe these are the pertinent rules:

    . . . Trap tiles are only placed if found by a search or if triggered by a character moving onto the trapped square.

    15.2 Trap tiles may be removed from the board by any character who has the Tool Kit equipment card and is adjacent to the trap.

    15.3 The Dwarf may automatically remove any trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.

Yet I recall other EU players have played that a falling block, once triggered, permanently remains on the board like a pit. I think that also can be reasoned from the rules:

    16.6 Falling Block
    When a character player moves through a square containing a falling block symbol, a block will fall. It will land into the adjacent square marked with the arrow on the Quest map, blocking the way.
There's a strong thematic reason to treat a stone that blocks the way as permanently remaining on the board: if it can fully block a square space, where does it go once removed? Also, Quest design would suggest a triggered block can't be so easily circumvented; the corridor falling block of Barak Tor--Barrow of the Witch Lord comes to mind.

This ambiguity also needs addressing, in my opinion.


Dead End Falling Block Traps
Falling block traps right after door, hero blocking way back

#20G Removing Pit Tiles from the board

Problem statement:Removing Pit Tiles from the board could take place when they are occupied.


16.2 Monsters do not set off traps. They may move freely though squares that contain hidden traps. Once a trap has been placed on the board, however monsters must follow the same rules as characters.

16. Traps
Traps are not put on the board until a character player either searches for traps and moves into a square containing a trap, as shown on the Quest map.

16.3 Pit Trap
The pit remains on the board as an obstacle. Any character who stumbles into a pit trap will automatically lose one Body point. Characters in a pit may attack and defend, but roll one less die than normal. They may not search whilst in a pit. The character may move as normal on his next turn.

If a player character moves into a passage, then searches for traps and discovers a pit trap some distance in front of him but ignores it. The following turn a monster attempts encounters the pit trap and as it is on the board he must attempt to jump it, but falls in. The Dwarf then removes the pit tile (16.3)


#20H Dwarf's Disarm Rule

Problem statement:Specifically around the Dwarf's disarm rules

These two rules appear to contradict each other as 15.3 states adjacent to but 21.2 any visible trap in the same room or passage, I'm open to suggestions but I would recommend removing the third sentence from 21.2

15.3 The Dwarf may automatically remove any trap tile he is adjacent to. He may only remove one trap per turn.

21.2 Dwarf
“You are the Dwarf. You are a good warrior and can always disarm traps that you find. You may remove any visible trap in the same room or passage”.

Does the Dwarf removing the trap tile count as an action, if so then the one trap per turn limit is superfluous as he can only take one action per turn anyway?
Does using the Tool kit to remove a trap count as an action, if so it makes sense that there is no limit, but if not why not and how come you can remove as many traps as you like with the Tool Kit per turn but the Dwarf can only remove one.


#20I Specifically around tool kit rules

Problem statement:

25.14 Tool kit
The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find. Roll one combat die. On the roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.

16.6 Falling Block
When a character player moves through a square containing a falling block symbol, a block will fall. It will land into the adjacent square marked with the arrow on the Quest map, blocking the way.

So if you search and find a falling block trap then move adjacent to it and use the tool kit to attempt to disarm it but roll a skull and set the trap off then you only lose one Body point then the trap is removed, what happens to the falling block and anyone on the target square, surely if you fail to disarm it then the trap would be triggered, either way why would you lose a Body point?

There is another issue here, around the Dwarf / Toolkit disarm rules pointed out by Carl Forhan HeroQuest Variants published in Vindicator Volume 1 #4

The Dwarf has a considerable advantage in his disarm traps ability (succeeds five out of six times), while the Tool Kit is expensive yet provides only a three out of six chance of success. To even this out, the Dwarf's ability is lowered to succeed only when a white skull is rolled (three out of six), and the Tool Kit is raised to succeed when anything but a white shield is rolled (four out of six)


Interestingly, whilst I'm not convinced that this is an issue personally, they are just different, it turns out that the changes that I have already proposed for this area result in exactly the same odds as Carl's suggested fix, so perhaps we just approached the same thing from different directions!

Additional material:

Topics around combining Trap and Secret Door searches in US rules

Searching for traps and secret doors
Searching for traps and secret doors (US)
Search for Treasure & Secret Doors

Note: any moderators reading this, these two topics above could be combined...

Topic around the logic behind how monsters interact with traps or don’t: Traps and Monster

Topic around Secret Doors (which side can they be found?): Secret Doors

Proposed changes:

Under discussion

Implemented changes:

Under discussion
Last edited by Bareheaded Warrior on Monday June 12th, 2023 9:17am, edited 4 times in total.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby HispaZargon » Saturday May 13th, 2023 5:35pm

Thanks for this hard work. I will try to give my opinion in some of the still opened topics. Most of them are really important, I think.


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Monday June 5th, 2023 7:32am

Some great discussion around this topic, specifically in light of attempts to “polish the second edition” so I just wanted to take the opportunity to consolidate all the suggestions for fixes to the individual issues around searching, traps, disarming, that are detailed on the relevant threads, and attempt to integrate them seamlessly into a single “new and improved search mechanism” (tongue-in-cheek) for the Second Edition.

Combined Proposal 1 wrote:
Search
On your turn you may opt to perform a search, this is a full turn action and includes both your action and your movement for that turn. You may choose to Search for Treasure or Search for Secret Doors and Traps.

Searching for Treasure
You may Search for Treasure in a room only and not in a passageway. You must be in the room, the room must be free of monsters and you must not have any monsters in any squares next to* you to perform this action.

Some of the Quests supply details about specific treasures which can be found by searching. If a character searches for treasure in that room the Evil Wizard player should reveal what treasure is hidden there. If there is no specific treasure listed for that room, then the hero player must take the top Treasure card.
Once a room has been searched for treasure, it must be recorded as being searched by placing a tile (any tile face down will do) in the room. This room cannot be searched for treasure a second time.

For clarity searching for treasure in a room containing treasure chests does not cover the chests themselves. They must be handled as per the standard second edition rules through ‘opening’

Searching for Secret Doors and Traps

You may Search for Secret Doors and Traps in rooms and passageways. You must be in the room or passageway or on a square adjacent to the room or passageway that you wish to search. The room or passageway that you wish to search must be free of monsters and you must not have any monsters in any squares next to* you to perform this action.

If you search a room for secret doors and traps and none are present then the EWP will inform you that no secret doors or traps are present. This ends your turn and you remain on the square that you occupied when you initiated the search.

If you search a passageway for secret doors and traps and none are present then the EWP will inform you that no secret doors or traps are present and will place your character on the square representing the furthest point along your search path. This ends your turn.

You may only search one room or passageway in a single search action. Passageways are straight, any corner or junction breaks a single passageway in two, but the corner or junction square is included in your search area. Where options exist you must indicate your direction of travel for the purposes of the search and this will define the search area and the square you end up being placed in.

If you search an area, a room or passageway, for secret doors and traps and one or more are present then the EWP will move your character onto the nearest trapped square or adjacent to the nearest trapped chest, door or secret door.
In the case of a secret door that will then be placed on the board in an open status and the EWP will lay out anything that can now be seen. This ends your turn.
In the case of trapped squares, chests or doors, you now get the chance to attempt to disarm the trap, see details below, which will result in either the trap being set off and ending your turn or the trap being disarmed (made safe).

*"Next to" covers both orthogonally and diagonally adjacent

Disarming Roll

A hero rolls a Red Die, if he scores 5 or more the trap has been disarmed and the tile is removed, otherwise he has sprung the trap.

• The Dwarf being a "Trap Master" will be successful on a roll of 3 or more
• Anyone (including the Dwarf) equipped with the Tool Kit gets a +1 on their roll.

If you prefer to use Combat Dice for activities that are not related to combat then
• Hero disarms on :whiteshield:
• Hero with Tool Kit disarms on :whiteshield: or :blackshield:
• Dwarf disarms on anything but a :whiteshield:
• Dwarf with Tool Kit disarms on anything but a :blackshield:


The combined proposal above resolves many if not all of the issues listed in previous posts without the need to introduce new tiles, such as suspect square or trap! markers. But please do review this and let me have any feedback in terms of issues that are not resolved, lack of clarity of the stated rules, and any and all new problems introduced by this ruleset.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


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Re: Search – The Binding Topic

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » Sunday June 25th, 2023 4:53am

A second proposal which, following play-testing, is rapidly becoming my preferred option, but may be too radical for some ;)

Combined Proposal 2 wrote:
Movement and Traps

If, as part of movement you step onto a trapped square, or try to open a trapped chest or door, then the Evil Wizard player will stop your movement and inform you of the presence of a trap. At this point you must perform a roll to detect and disarm the trap.

Detect and Disarm Roll

A hero rolls a Red Die, if they score 5 or more the trap has been disarmed, otherwise they have sprung the trap.

• The Dwarf being a "Trap Master" will be successful on a roll of 3 or more
• Anyone (including the Dwarf) equipped with the Tool Kit gets a +1 on their roll.

If you prefer to use Combat Dice for activities that are not related to combat then
• Hero disarms on :whiteshield:
• Hero with Tool Kit disarms on :whiteshield: or :blackshield:
• Dwarf disarms on anything but a :whiteshield:
• Dwarf with Tool Kit disarms on anything but a :blackshield:

Movement and Secret Doors
If, as part of movement, you step onto a square adjacent to a secret door, then the Evil Wizard player will stop your movement and inform you of the presence of the secret door and will place an open secret door tile in the appropriate position before laying out the contents of the dungeon behind the door.

Search
On your turn you may opt to perform a search, this is a full turn action and includes both your action and your movement for that turn.

You may Search in a room only and not in a passageway. You must be in the room, the room must be free of monsters and you must not have any monsters in any squares next to* you to perform this action.

A room can only be searched once, although it may take more than one search action to complete a search of a room.

If the room contains one or more trapped squares then place the searcher on the nearest trapped square and follow the process above. This ends the search action.

If the room contains no trapped squares but does contain one or more secret doors then place the searcher on the square adjacent to the nearest secret door and follow the process above. This ends the search action.

If the room contains no traps and no secret doors then the searcher may have found treasure.

Some of the Quest notes detail specific treasure which can be found by searching. If a character searches in that room the Evil Wizard player should reveal what treasure is hidden there. If there is no specific treasure listed for that room, then the hero player must take the top Treasure card.

Once a room has been searched, it must be recorded as being searched by placing a tile (any tile face down will do) in the room. This room cannot be searched again.


For clarity, searching in a room containing treasure chests does not cover the chests themselves. They must be handled as per the standard second edition rules through ‘opening’

*"Next to" covers both orthogonally and diagonally adjacent

This second proposal, I think, fixes every single listed issue with the "official" rules (I'm double checking the list) without the need to introduce new tiles, such as suspect square or trap! markers. My current group have playtesting this mechanism (they don't know they are guinea pigs) and have reached Quest for the Spirit Blade, so far, without uncovering any issues or unintended consequences. As the EWP I have found this a very smooth mechanism to apply that quickly becomes second nature to the point where I now couldn't imagine playing it any other way.
:skull: = white skull, one "hit"
:blackshield: = black skull, one "hit"
:whiteshield: = shield, cancels out one "hit"

Editions: 1989 Original First Edition [FE] and Second Edition [SE], 1990 Remake [US], 2021 Remake [21]

HeroQuest Gold new edition based on Original 1989 HeroQuest, holes patched, dents hammered out, buffed to a shiny finish with ~50 common issues fixed for a smoother experience.

HQ Common Notification System to identify squares on the board


Rewards:
Wrote an article for the Blog.
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