Line of Sight

[knotschi]

the APP isn't the game, it doesn't incorporate any different weapons, armor, line of sight rules for combat etc. it just has an attack button, then you tell it if the monster was defeated or how much damage was accrued. It basically is a monster and game board room and hall revealer, and monster mover (and attack roller) on Zargon's turn, designed so that those who have never played can be surprised in a solo venture. It is a game aid for playing by yourself with the app acting as Zargon, but the human still needs to interpret the rule book.

Actually the app has built in logic for line of sight, but only for spells. For example when you try to cast a fireball, you can only attack monsters that are in line of sight.
I found it quite useful to play around with the app, opening some rooms with monsters and trying out a lot of different positions of my heroes to see from which positions I can cast fireballs on which monsters.

By the rules of the app it is possible if you have one hero blocking a door and one hero next to him (to attack diagonal), you can still position both other heroes in a way that they can attack with ranged weapons or spells when positioned properly.

[Kurgan]

Yeah, I wouldn't consider the App a definitive "clarification" to any rules, since it's all on the honor system. But it is interesting that they tried to account for "legal moves" with the spells. Crossbows function the same in 2021 remake as they always did in the NA rules of 1990. Meaning they don't say you can't fire at the close diagonal squares and don't say you can't, making it a gray area as to what was originally intended (one method of interpretation makes them much more powerful, and necessitate adding more homebrew rules to maintain equipment balance; the other does not).

[arntisdale]

By the rules of the app it is possible if you have one hero blocking a door and one hero next to him (to attack diagonal)

I've done it this way since forever. You can have a guy with a shortsword stabbing at the monster adjacent to him through a door, and a buddy with a staff next to him whacking at the same monster diagonally through the door. I'm pretty sure most folks here do the same.

Along the lines of weirdness of the app, here are a few things I caught that were ... well, weird.

The wording of the rapier suggests that it can be used to attack ONLY diagonally, and when you press the 'attack' button in the app using the bard, it's attack direction indicators only show the diagonals, not the adjacents. I just shrugged and continued to treat it like a 2 attack dice longsword (which is what I think it was originally intended to be)

So, you know how when you open a door into a corridor, you can 'see' the entire contents of the corridor without actually stepping through the door, right?
But, when walking around through corridors, I've always treated so that you had to step into the corner of two intersecting corridors to 'see' the full contents of the next corridor.
The app has me 'seeing' the entire contents of the next corridor if I step in a space adjacent to that corner space. Made me wonder...
How do you guys do it in your games? The way I described first, the way the app does it, something else?

[Kurgan]

The door blocking technique many of us Zargons complain about (often making the game too easy) was literally advocated for right there in the Instruction booklet in 1990 and still is in 2021, so we have nothing to say about it except come up with creative ways to lessen its dominance later on (secret activation rooms, double doors, monsters with diagonal/ranged attacks, traps in the doorway, etc) as it gets exploited by savvy players.

The way I've always played it and I believe is the correct way intended, is when you step into an intersection, you get to look down each corridor to see everything normally visible in that way. But you won't see the contents of a corridor until you step a square into it where you could LOS see it. Am I understanding you correctly?

Heroes don't have the option to "not look" to see things, so in that sense, they automatically trigger Zargon to reveal an entire corridor when they step even one square down it (or at the intersection) just as they trigger Zargon to reveal the entire room when they open the door (or open a secret door, which can only be done by stepping adjacent to it). "Looking" at any other time is only done as a way to establish LOS when intended to do a ranged attack (whether spell, crossbow or thrown dagger... add Handaxe and presumably Spear to that as well).

The Rapier being ONLY a diagonal strike weapon would certainly be unique, but is probably a glitch. It's not explicitly stated that it can't hit adjacent squares, nor is any logic given why this would be the case, so I'm in agreement that it's like a weaker longsword (or a non-throwable spear/non-artifact wizard's staff I suppose).

Someone should send that errata to Hasbro/Avalon Hill (I don't have instagram or twitter, so I cannot). Then again, they did finally respond to my email to Customer Service on Hasbro Pulse, so maybe that could work too, but it seems a much slower option to get their attention!

Looking is not an action, so if you were at an intersection of corridors, you could look down each one right away without having to wait until your next turn as if it were.

I have at times acknowledged the unique features of the MS-DOS HeroQuest game for clues on how to resolve vague rule issues, but I acknowledge it's a very different animal and so probably not appropriate except as a curiosity. When the rules don't make sense or there's a grey area, it's Zargon's call. I would like my homebrew fix or solution be somewhat close to what the designers would have intended, and sometimes there just isn't a good source on that, and in the end it doesn't really matter so long as it's fun for what you're doing.

But this Companion App is SUPPOSED to be the same as the physical game (to work in tandem with it) so these types of things that differ from the true game (the text in the Rulebook, amended by the text on the cards and quest notes in turn) are simply in error. That is, the App is not meant to be a second alternative version of the game, but simply an automated bot to take the place of the Zargon player.

Otherwise what are we supposed to imagine, that this particular Zargon is homebrewing weird rules in there about the Rapier? I doubt they intended that and in fact just screwed up. No other diagonal weapon functions that way and there's no clue given that this was intended any other way. And only us Mythic players really have this difficulty to begin with! Which is another odd thing. Why did they bother to put Mythic stuff in there if the majority of players, looking forward, won't have access to those things (except as an overpriced rarity on ebay) and it will remain as a forever "tease" of what they can't have? Unless as some speculated hopefully that these items would someday be re-released to the general public. I mean, let's face it, players have been able to use the Bard, Warlock, Druid and all their gear since the moment they put that info out for playtesting, we just have to provide our own analogs for the cards and minis. But, not everyone is so DIY minded, and will wonder why these things are there if they're supposed to be moving their own set around and those components are consciously absent. I guess they could have two editions of the app, one for mythic collectors and one for everybody else, or "select your version: retail/heroic or mythic."

[Kurgan]

Door blocking is a simple thing. You place a hero in front of a door, attacking the monster through the open doorway. But there's another hero next to you that can use his diagonal attack to hit the monster as well, while that monster (unless he too has a diagonal attack) can't hit him back, only the hero in front. You could also add a second partner in this door blocking enterprise for a total of three, at most, though you could have a character attack, then move out of the way for another to take his place and attack I suppose (a technique Zargon could always do with his monsters as well).

By the rules of the app it is possible if you have one hero blocking a door and one hero next to him (to attack diagonal), you can still position both other heroes in a way that they can attack with ranged weapons or spells when positioned properly.

I'm not quite sure how this would be possible. Yes, you can place a hero in front of one door and two other heroes flanking him on both sides... meaning the other two heroes can use diagonal weapons/ranged to fire at a monster inside the room. But the fourth hero would have no where to use his spells other than on the three "blocking" heroes (or on himself) and nothing to fire his ranged weapon at since they are blocking his LOS.

That is, unless the App is not adhering to the explicit NA rules in this case. To do what you're suggesting above, you'd need a second door way or the fourth hero to be literally inside the room with the monster.

[arntisdale]

I think the issue I have with the app is when to reveal the contents of a room/corridoor.
So, normally, a hero standing in a corridor can pop open a door, and this reveals the entire contents of a room, correct? Same thing if moving from room to room.
So, does that work in reverse? A hero standing in a room opens a door to a corridor and reveals the entire contents of the corridor, or do they have to step out one space first?
And finally (the one I was trying to get at in my previous post) if a hero is walking down a corridor (lets say one on an edge), and walking to a corner intersection with another corridor (lets say, corner of the gameboard), when does Zargon reveal the contents of the corridor that he's moving toward? I've always played it as the moment you step into the actual corner. The app has is as the moment you step into the square just before you get to the corner.

[HispaZargon]

I think the app follows the rules "looking down a corridor" and "looking through an open door" described in the NA rulebook, page 13, assuming the hero is looking through the door or from the corridor corner once it is placed in the last adjacent square. This rule is also included in the remake's rulebook (I don't know if the page number is the same).

Screenshot_20220106-185334_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

[Kurgan]

Trace a straight line from the hero until it hits a closed door or wall, and that is the extent of his sight. In the case of corridors, although not stated in the rulebook, the designers have publicly clarified it was always intended that you can see all the figures in a corridor, so them being behind other figures doesn't stop them from being placed on the board.

So in that sense yes, a corridor you can see it completely seen, unless from the standpoint of the hero his sight only passes to a single square of a corridor let's say. You wouldn't need to reveal the whole thing until his sight would encompass the whole corridor. Yes, a room gets revealed whether the Hero steps inside the room or not.

[CavemanLogic]

Hi, in my homebrew rules, I make a difference between "see" and "be in the line of sight":

For me a hero can "see" everything inside a corridor or a room if the hero is inside that corridor or room or the hero is "looking down a corridor" through an opened door or from a corner between corridors. I consider monsters or heroes previously placed there cannot block what can be seen inside the room/corridor like furniture, walls, doors, or other monsters/heroes. If a monster can be "seen" by a hero means that such monster does not allow the hero to do any searching task. Additionally, if a moster can be "seen" by a hero, it also means that such monster can be ONLY the target of the hero's spells that 'common sense' tells a straight line between the hero and the monster is not required (for example, Sleep or Tempest could be casted but Ball of Flame or Fire of Wrath may not). This also means that such monster cannot be the target for any missile or throwing weapon in any case. The same applies in case of monsters.

However, in the other hand for me, a hero/monster "is in the line of sight" of other hero/monster when its position strictly shows compliance with the line of sight rules described in the rulebook, including the "looking down a corridor" rule for line of sight. In this case, those miniatures can be "seen" as described in previous paragraph but they ALSO are "in the line of sight", so they can be the target for every missile weapon or spell. Then, other miniatures can block the "line of sight" of a hero but they cannot block what the hero "sees" behind them. The same applies in case of monsters.

Of course this interpretation is not fully effective but I think solves 95% of the unclear cases.

So like the difference between "aware of their presence" vs. "have a clear shot to target them."

I'm only on page three of this five page thread (so this may have been more fully answered further on), but...

I use what I call "Line of Sight" and "Field of Vision." It sounds like it may be similar to the differentiation that both of you use. Let me explain further: Line of Sight is what you use when targeting an opponent with a spell or ranged weapon attack. So, the intended use from the rulebook. Line of Sight is blocked by Heroes and Monsters. Field of Vision is what you use when revealing rooms and corridors. Unlike Line of Sight, Field of Vision is *not* blocked by Heroes and Monsters.

When you open a door to a room, and Zargon populates the room with Monsters and Furniture, you are using Field of Vision. It is assumed you open the door and peek your head into the room to quickly look around and see *everything* within that room. You do so by remaining in your square outside that door.

I apply that same logic to revealing corridors as well, as it only makes sense. When a Hero opens a door from inside a room to an unexplored Corridor, I allow them to peek out into the corridor, and I will fully populate the corridor in the same manner as a room. Everything within their Field of Vision will be placed on the board, including all doors and Monsters, regardless of if they are partially obscured behind another Monster. In the same manner, I allow Heroes to pause their movement one square away from an unexplored corridor, and peek around the corner as if they were in the next square forward. It makes sense for rooms, so why wouldn't it work for corridors?

Regarding Line of Sight, I use a slightly modified version of the HeroQuest Rules as Written. This gets back to the original point of the OP of this thread. The main point was that it seems like an error in the rulebook that the LoS from the Elf to the middle-right Orc (from the LoS example image in the HeroQuest rulebook) crosses into the corner of the Wizard's square (rather than just *touching* the corner of his square). In my slightly modified version of LoS, the Elf *does* have LoS to that middle Orc, not because his LoS only passes through an arbitrarily small section of the Wizard's square, but because I allow the Elf to "lean" around the Wizard. Let me explain...

To have Line of Sight to a target, you must be able to draw an unimpeded non-zero-width line from *anywhere* in your square to the *center* of the target square.



The Elf would be able to choose any point in his own square to target from. By choosing the Northeast corner of his square as the origin of his LoS, he leans a bit around the Wizard's square, and he is then able to draw an unimpeded line to the center of that Orc's square.

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As a relatively new user here, I'm a bit confused about how to embed images into my posts. It could be that this a feature that is turned off by default, and I somehow need to get moderator approval to activate that feature? Also, I tried to look for a way to upload my own images to YeOldeInn, either into a public gallery, or into a private user gallery (if such a thing exists here), but have been unsuccessful so far. I am a 17-year veteran of Boardgamegeek, where you can easily upload your own images to either a game's BGG gallery page (after mod approval), or you can upload them to your private user gallery for immediate use in your own forum posts and replies. The different interface here on YeOldeInn seems to be confusing me a bit.

Thanks for any help.

[Kurgan]

After getting 14 "meaningful" posts on the forums you'll get access to the "Champion" status group and be able to post image attachments (if not, contact a moderator for help). Welcome!

The EU and NA versions have clearly different understandings of what they mean. Many fans here have an idea of what it OUGHT to mean for their game, but I try to make a distinction between that and what the designers intended. What Zargon puts out is based on whether the door to a previously unrevealed room is opened (or if a Hero were to enter a room by the Pass Through Rock spell) or if a corridor is entered or passed through by a Hero... if by touching a square, the Hero would see something, it gets revealed and stays revealed. "See" seems to me to be synonymous with "line of sight" meaning the straight line rule, consistently throughout the NA rules and so that's how most of us have read the cards that mention terms like see and sight but also "visible."

Where it gets a little tricky is with searching, but even that can be rationalized as the difference between what is revealed by Zargon (as you mention) and what Heroes can see for purposes of targeting an attack or spell.

If you can't trace that unobstructed straight line from one figure to the other, then they can't "see" the target for purposes of hitting them with a "see" spell or missile weapon... under the default NA rules (not contradicted by the Remake edition).

In Space Crusade there's a weapon that lets you hit a bunch of squares at once, and so whatever is in that area gets hit. That sort of thing would be different (only thing that comes to mind close to that is Firestorm which hits the whole room except the spell caster).

Make the decision and then be consistent with it when you play (unless it's just plain "not working"). Usually the LOS thing comes up when we are talking about the specific range of a certain spell, or whether the Crossbow can hit those four closest diagonal squares (or has to be at least one square beyond). I agree it's a different way of thinking about it if you grew up with the EU edition which took a much different approach (basically in the same room or corridor means you can pretty much hit it... and then straight through the open door I guess if you're outside the room). Requiring LOS makes it harder for the good guys (since few of the bad guys have ranged weaponry to begin with). In Space Crusade there's a mechanic wherein if there is a dispute about LOS, the GM and the player both roll dice, and the highest roll determines who decides the target can be "seen." If you choose to homebrew such a rule of course the participants would have to agree to be bound by the decision of the dice! (and probably not do it every single time)