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Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Re: Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

Postby Kurgan » Friday May 7th, 2021 10:08pm

Except realism really doesn't matter here, lots of stuff in the game isn't realistic to actual medieval weaponry. It's intended for balance/gameplay/fun mechanics. It's perfectly possible in real life to hide behind a shield as you load (and fire) a crossbow, even one handed. Warriors fought with spears and other long weapons while holding shields as well. Longswords are two handed in real life, but you can swing them (less accurately or powerfully) one handed. Plate armor doesn't halve your movement, why would being a "wizard" prevent you from wielding a metal weapon or wearing metal armor? blah blah blah. I point out the realism more when someone says it isn't realistic when it actually is. As to whether it should be that way in game, is another question.

So the question is what did the game designers intend. Is it clarified in the EU rules? Otherwise you're just making a homebrew rule to either make it more realistic, more fun or more balanced your own way.

So how do you treat switching between the shield and two handed weapons? Because that's not covered in the rules at all. Strictly speaking it would seem you would have to drop the item that's causing the conflict (losing it forever like a thrown dagger?) or hand it to another player to hold (free action). Then again the game never had a problem swapping between one two handed weapon and another. And the idea of carrying capacity is completely a house rule... we know the Heroes will have plenty of weapons by the end of even the base campaign.

I get what you're saying... why would a Hero spend an extra 100 gold to have both a ranged 3 dice attack and an adjacent 3 dice attack? Could be they screwed up in the explanation. Or maybe it's just that your gold situation might call for one but not the other. To many players its worth it to have the extra movement than the extra protection of Plate for instance. Maybe having both is more worth it to someone vs. just having the 3 dice diagonal strike.

In the PC game (which uses a blend of EU version rules and its own conventions) just makes it a free action. You go into your gear menu and toggle off the shield, then you toggle on the battle axe or staff that you wanted to use. When you're done attacking, toggle the two handed weapon off and the shield back on. You can do this every single turn. The question then becomes if you make it that easy, how do you prevent it being abused (always have benefit of shield for defense, always have benefit of Battle Axe for attack)?
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Re: Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

Postby Jalapenotrellis » Friday May 7th, 2021 11:10pm

So I wasn't trying to make any realism argument. I'm not sure why that was what you got from my last post other than me saying I've seen it both ways in TV shows, in my mind referring to Merlin or Game of Thrones (which are both, unfortunately, fictional).

I make the argument from a balance standpoint. It creates purpose for the longsword.

I also allow them to not swap anything out that they just attacked with. They can swap at the beginning of a turn, and then not until the beginning of their next turn. But yes, that is a balance rule I made to clarify the rest of the rules to make sense with each other.

Allowing them to always defend with 5-6 dice depending on plate mail for the non wizards is too easy. If certain weapons offer a combat advantage, the shield can't be used. Such as the crossbow or battle axe and my assumption they are two handed.

The crossbow could have been listed in the armory as "cannot be used with a shield" like they did for everything else, and clearly they didn't put that under that weapon, therefore making the longsword a "trap" purchase or "junk" purchase with the game as written. The idea you can't fire it adjacently seems to assume some form of unwieldy aspect to using it next to a monster.
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Re: Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

Postby Kurgan » Saturday May 8th, 2021 9:58am

Yeah, you're definitely arguing game balance. I'm inclined to keep it as it is (while yet again admitting I WAS WRONG about the diagonal 1 square thing). My inclination with these rules is to play it "as written" as much as possible and just sprinkle little extras on top, rather than modifying it into something I think is more balance/realistic/fun... though others may freely disagree. If I were writing the rules I'd say the diagonal squares are still "too close" if adjacent is "too close" but you've shown me that I was reading that into the text, it wasn't actually saying that and the picture solidifies that position for me now (my own picture, illustrating what I thought it was aside).

I am seeing it as a compromise buy, not a trick to ruin the player.

As near as I can tell it's just a matter of what you want to spend your gold on. It's sort of like how you could buy chainmail, then later trade it in for platemail. But why not save your gold (you'll lose half the value of chainmail selling it.... though you could gift it to another Hero but now he's in the same situation). So just saving up for the stronger armor saved you 250 gold! But now you've got a movement penalty, I suppose.

The longsword gives you a nice balance, but if you really want all the abilities you would just get (or keep) your broadsword and crossbow. That is.. without any house rules changing weapons into two handed, or making switching an action, or limiting carrying capacity, etc.

Why would you ever buy a shortsword? Well, maybe you lost yours and that's all you can afford? The player gets to make choices.

Even with 6 (or 7) defend dice, Heroes still get killed playing absurdly difficult quest packs like EQP/BQP...
Thankfully if you have enough gold, you can stockpile potions (no rule against them stacking), which can make up for the movement limitations of Plate (for one Hero... if another gets Borin's Armor and the other gets Elven Chainmail, they have the full benefit anyway) and you can add more attack and defend dice, I believe up to 8 or 9 dice (I'd have to check again) if combined with spells too. But you've got to find the gold in the first place...
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Re: Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

Postby iKarith » Sunday May 9th, 2021 12:54am

We had another debate tonight over the Courage spell.

Courage lasts as long as you can "see" an enemy. We concluded that the NA rules pretty much tell you to have the wizard go last, and this is dumb: Zargon knows you just cast Courage on someone. So all the monsters run out the door and behind a wall, thus guaranteeing that the spell is 100% useless all the time? So we decided to play it as courage lasts at least to the end of your next turn. Yeah Zargon can retreat everybody to just behind a wall, but if the hero gives chase and can keep up, he'll maintain it.

But what kind of "see" is meant by the spell?

We've determined there are really three kinds of visibility in HQ:

1. In play. It's on the board and the players can see it.
2. Line of sight. You see it, and you could shoot it or throw a spell at it.
3. Visible. You see it, but you do not have an unobstructed line of sight.

The third option, visible, is kind of an inference. When you open a door and don't step in (NA rules do not require you to enter a room upon opening a door), or round a corner in a hallway, everything beyond is placed on the board. If there's two skeletons and a wall down that hallway, you see them. You don't have line of sight on that second skeleton (the first one is in the way), but you see that he's there.

Walls block visibility. Closed doors block visibility. Furniture doesn't (although if a bookshelf is not up against a wall and there's a goblin behind it, c'mon, you DO NOT have visibility of that goblin! EU rules suggest that not only do you, but you can ricochet your spells and bolts of the wall to shoot him around the corner in a room but out in the corridors, strict line-of-sight rules apply to do the same!

This kind of visibility is a bit subjective as kinda not really quite written. *shrug* Like I said, the goblin behind a bookcase would not be visible, but the orc on the other side of the table would be. And while you can't shoot over/under/around friendlies to attack hostiles, you can see the hostiles are there.

But can you "see" them for the purposes of Courage?

The EU rules apply line of sight to corridors always, but throw that out the window for rooms and if you're on the other side of an open door … what? It's not really specified which you use if you're looking at a room through an open doorway you haven't passed through yet. But otherwise these are pretty simple, if BS with the line of sight to the entire room, no matter who or what is in the way. As usual NA is the one that makes it unclear.
Milton Bradley: "So guys, everyone knows about orcs, goblins and mummies and stuff, but what about these 'fimirs' we're putting in the game? Tell me all about them!"

Games Workshop: "Uhhhhhhhhhhh...."
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