Crossbow--2 handed or can use a shield?

[Jalapenotrellis]

So my group is half way through RotWL now. I wanted to provide an update on how we have been ruling this. If they attack with the crossbow, they defend with it. So they can change weapons once at the start of their turn. We also ruled it is a two handed weapon, which differentiates its use from the longsword if just diagonal of a monster in terms of ability to defend with higher dice if they choose the longsword from melee monsters.

[iKarith]

So my group is half way through RotWL now. I wanted to provide an update on how we have been ruling this. If they attack with the crossbow, they defend with it. So they can change weapons once at the start of their turn. We also ruled it is a two handed weapon, which differentiates its use from the longsword if just diagonal of a monster in terms of ability to defend with higher dice if they choose the longsword from melee monsters.

This is fair. Even a pistol crossbow, which can be fired one-handed, takes a second hand to load the thing. It kinda seems that the HQ crossbows have Instant Legolas type magazines going on, okay, I'm down with that, so they can reload pretty quickly. but you still need one hand to work a cocking lever and the other to brace it while you do. You can't do that while using a shield realistically.

If the crossbow is slung, you could drop the thing and switch to sword and perhaps even shield fairly quickly. Going the other way doesn't make as much sense (sheathing a sword is not a quick action!) but okay, maybe you stuck the tip into the dirt or between some rocks or something. It's kinda silly but … sure. (It's actually done by archers with their arrows. They'll set a line of them with tips in the grass, oriented so that they grab, draw, fire, grab, draw, fire…

So … sensible solution. If you attacked with a crossbow, you can't switch to a shield same turn.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

From Mining Mordheim

Conclusion

So in terms of porting all this to HeroQuest I would suggest the following:

Add a restriction to the Crossbow so that you cannot move and shoot on the same turn.

Add a restriction to throwing weapons of a maximum range of 9 squares

Crossbow Pistol
500 Gold Coins
Weapon, Large, Missile, 3AD
This missile weapon allows you to roll three combat dice in attack, but is limited in range to 15 squares.

Quantity = 1 (I would restrict this to only a single Equipment card as it is supposed to be very rare)

Repeater Crossbow
600 Gold Coins
Weapon, Large, Missile, Both Hands, 2AD
This missile weapon allows you to roll two combat dice in attack and enables you to shoot twice as a single action against the same or different targets.

Quantity = 1 (I would restrict this to only a single Equipment card as it is supposed to be very rare)

[Kurgan]

Officially the only weapons that are "two handed" (this terminology is never used in the official game if I recall correctly) that is, can't be combined with a Shield, are the Staff and Battle-Axe. This means you can use a longsword with a shield, and a crossbow with a shield without restrictions. Anything else is homebrew...

[Jalapenotrellis]

Our group has played all but the last 5 quests of the barbarian quest pack, original version. We should finish this year. To differentiate the crossbow from the longsword when attacking diagonally, we have ruled that the crossbow cannot use a shield. Players can switch weapons at the start of their turn, but after taking an action to attack with that weapon setup, they are stuck in that weapon set up through Zargon's turn. We have had to make very few homebrew changes the whole way through the expansions. Yes, the last ones are hard, but by that point players have a system down and the Elf spells and potions, the barbarian potions. They are game changers. Like, a smart tactical player really needs no help. If they try to tank everything and just trade hp, yeah, they will die or run out of potions without dedicated farming.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The Crossbow card doesn't include the phrase "You may not use a shield when using the crossbow", this may be because the designers intended that the two could be used together, it may be that they just forgot to add that text to the card, but there is a third possibility that the designers intent was that the "shooting a crossbow" action (technically a variant of the attack action) included "stowing your current held gear, drawing your crossbow, loading your crossbow, shooting your opponent, stowing your crossbow and reequipping your hand-to-hand combat equipment" so the question as to whether you could use a shield whilst using crossbow was not relevant.

I'm sure that the 'realism' objection will crop up at this point, but then I don't think that "realism" is the driving consideration in the game (it is a game therefore it is abstract), considerations like simplicity, internal consistency and fun take precedent, after all if realism is what we wanted then we would have spent the last 3 decades debating the relative merits of different Orc breeding techniques or the best constituent materials to form mortar in our underground dungeon (instead of spending it much better in debating this crossbow shield question)

[The Admiral]

No shield with a crossbow. Have you tried using a crossbow while holding a shield? Well, I actually haven't, but i imagine it would be very difficult.

Show me a warhammer figure with a crossbow/bow and a shield and I'll consider changing my mind.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The Admiral, assuming that your last post was specifically in response to mine (and it may have just been a general response), then I may have not been clear.

My proposal that the designers intent was that the "shooting a crossbow" action implicitly includes "temporarily stowing your current held gear, drawing your crossbow, loading your crossbow, shooting your opponent, stowing your crossbow and reequipping your hand-to-hand combat equipment" may generate many objections, some valid no doubt, but it doesn't involve a hero having to use a crossbow while simultaneously holding a shield.

Allowing you the 'spacetime' to switch equipment in this circumstance, whilst preventing you from doing so, when for example you are in combat and might be tempted to attack with a Battle axe and then switch and defend with sword and shield, is already achieved with the built-in rule that you can only use a missile weapon (or throw a throwing weapon) when you do NOT have an opponent next to you*.

*For further clarity my own rules use the following terminology:

• “Adjacent” squares refer to the 4 squares that share a side with the current square (orthogonal).
• “Diagonal” squares refer to the 4 squares that share a corner with the current square (diagonal).
• “Next to” refers to all eight squares that surround the current squares, both the 4 adjacent and the 4 diagonals (orthogonal and diagonal)

[The Admiral]

The Admiral, assuming that your last post was specifically in response to mine (and it may have just been a general response), then I may have not been clear.

My proposal that the designers intent was that the "shooting a crossbow" action implicitly includes "temporarily stowing your current held gear, drawing your crossbow, loading your crossbow, shooting your opponent, stowing your crossbow and reequipping your hand-to-hand combat equipment" may generate many objections, some valid no doubt, but it doesn't involve a hero having to use a crossbow while simultaneously holding a shield.

Allowing you the 'spacetime' to switch equipment in this circumstance, whilst preventing you from doing so, when for example you are in combat and might be tempted to attack with a Battle axe and then switch and defend with sword and shield, is already achieved with the built-in rule that you can only use a missile weapon (or throw a throwing weapon) when you do NOT have an opponent next to you*.

*For further clarity my own rules use the following terminology:

• “Adjacent” squares refer to the 4 squares that share a side with the current square (orthogonal).
• “Diagonal” squares refer to the 4 squares that share a corner with the current square (diagonal).
• “Next to” refers to all eight squares that surround the current squares, both the 4 adjacent and the 4 diagonals (orthogonal and diagonal)

No, it was a general reply to the topic header.

I have specific rules for what a Hero has on their person, and what they can actually use. A Hero with a crossbow in his/her hands can use nothing else. In close combat they only get 1 die for using the crossbow as a club. If they carry other weapons such as a sword and shield they would have to take an action to switch to them from the crossbow and vice versa. It makes the crossbow less attractive, but I compensate by the target of a crossbow losing a defence die due to the armour piercing qualities of a bolt.

I like restricting the Heroes' use of their multiple weapon combo's as it makes them make a choice as to what they think they will need in the near future. Are they correct or not? only time will tell. I want my Heroes having to make as many choices as possible. It is in my opinion what makes the game fun.

My ranged weapons cannot fire from any of the 8 surrounding squares. Adjacent weapons attack the 4 side squares, diagonal weapons all 8.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The argument that the crossbow should forfeit a shield because it's "obviously two handed" because it takes two hands to load (never mind that real crossbows of the right size can be loaded and fired one handed by a clever person) can be answered by saying they obviously loaded the crossbow between turns and that's a free (and automatic) action just like someone doesn't have to take an extra turn to "ready" their sword or whatever (unless a person really wants to role play those and countless other actions in their game). To make things really realistic, they should also say that the Shield CAN be used with the Staff, Battleaxe, Spear, etc. without penalty because in real life there are shields and warriors who could do that too. And maybe in those rulesets they do this and I just missed it because I was so focused on the crossbow.

I have no issue with your logic around the crossbow-shield combination being acceptable because “they obviously loaded the crossbow between turns and that's a free (and automatic) action” except that same logic that allows me to stow my shield or put it on the floor, load my crossbow, then re-equip my shield ready to defend, applied consistently would mean that I can use a battle axe-shield combination, I attack with the battle axe on my turn, shift my battle axe to one-hand, equip my shield between turns as a free (and automatic) action, so defend against attacks on the EWP’s turn with my shield. However, if that logic was intended why would they write “You may not use a shield when using the Battle axe.”?

I think the principle is that movement, actions, free-actions (and even reactions like drinking a healing potion in response to losing Body points) for all characters in a single round of turns actually happens simultaneously or at least concurrently within the same brief period of time but the game chooses to split them into player/character turns for simplicity.

This would mean that if we are attacking using a battle axe in both hands then there isn’t time to re-equip a shield to defend against an attack coming in at or very quickly in succession. In the same vein if you are retrieving a bolt, loading and shooting the crossbow then there isn’t time to re-equip a shield to defend against an attack coming in at or very quickly in succession.

Out of interest, where do you stand on the combination of staff and shield or short bow and shield?