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Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Discuss the Rules of HeroQuest as set out by Milton Bradley Game Systems and Quest Packs.

Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby wallydubbs » Friday October 19th, 2018 7:47am

Thanks to this website I've added the spells from MotM and WoM(Z) to the campaign my crew are playing in the Original HeroQuest System, as this gives the Wizard and Elf a variety of spells to choose from and may add various scenarios to game play.
As most of these spells are comparatively different, there are some spells that seem to overlap and encapsulate others. Invisibility allows the elf or Wizard to become invisible for a turn while Disappear allows the Elf to remain invisible indefinitely (Depending on choice and die roll). In essence this makes Disappear much more powerful (unless the hero immediately rolls a 9 or higher on movement). While Disappear allows no other action Invisibility only says you can't attack, be attacked or cast spells, so I assume searching for traps, treasure, secret doors and disarming traps is still allowed while under the effects of the Invisibility spell. My questions are:

1.) Since the hero cannot be detected by monsters with Invisibility or Disappear spells, does this also imbue them with the Veil of Mist powers as well?
If so, this would make Veil of Mist less unique.

Sleep and Deep Sleep each have situational benefits, my wizard player often gets aggravated when I immediately break her sleep spell or negate Fire of Wrath, Deep Sleep doesn't give me the chance to roll, where as Sleep also has the possibility of lasting indefinitely (there was a time my Fimir was asleep for 5 turns).
Tempest makes the monster lose his next turn, but still gives him the ability to defend, Chains of Darkness prevents a monster from attacking or moving, but he may still cast spell. Tempest makes no reference to spell casting monsters, so it's assumed that the monster can't cast spells. Tempest can also be used to revoke a FireBurst Trap and the Choas Mist from RotWL.
2.) In essence, therefor, isn't Tempest more powerful and more effective then Chains of Darkness?
3.) And asides from the fact that Tempest can dispel a FireBurst trap, wouldn't Deep Sleep be more effective then both Tempest and Chains of Darkness (since it prevents them from defending.

4.) Can the Dispell spell negate a FireBurst Trap?
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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby lestodante » Friday October 19th, 2018 6:47pm

you should not consider the spells singularly but in a set of 3 (except for the elf spells).
Each group of 3 cards has some more powerful spell and some less powerful. This is made to balance (approssimatively) the set. If a group is way more powerful than another one, no one will ever choice the weakest set.
Try to compare sets, and not single spells. Then there can still be some set better than others, but it will also depend by the different situation you'll get in. Tempest was not so useful in the game-system, it was upgraded in the expansion (with the introduction of Death Myst and magic traps.
In some custom quests other spells may be more usable than other.


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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby wallydubbs » Monday October 22nd, 2018 10:30am

I understand what you're saying and that does answer two of my questions.
Tempest might be slightly more effective then Chains of Darkness, Genie's 5 attack dice can be more or less effective then Arrows of the Night (perfect for taking out Mummies). While Cloak of Shadows seems to come in handy more often then Swift Wind.

But the rules are rather unclear on Invisibility and Disappear, is the hero under the effects of these spells allowed to pass through monsters like Veil of Mist? I suppose I could just housrule this, Spells of Protection rarely come in handy in the Original System, as there are a limited number of enemy spell casters. But I was wanting other people's opinion as well. Could/should "Dispell" also be used to dispell a FireBurst Trap? Since it is a Magical Trap and Dispell has limited use, I think it sgould. (I've included several Treasure cards from the expansion packs into the Original System)

Thank you for any opinions.
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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby knightkrawler » Monday October 22nd, 2018 10:38am

wallydubbs wrote:But the rules are rather unclear on Invisibility and Disappear, is the hero under the effects of these spells allowed to pass through monsters like Veil of Mist?


The book of instructions say a hero cannot move through monsters unless the EWP allows it.
Does the spell in question refer to this rule, constructing an exception to it for the spell's effect?
If not, then the general rule remains unchanged.
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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby benvoliothefirst » Monday October 22nd, 2018 11:15am

knightkrawler wrote:
wallydubbs wrote:But the rules are rather unclear on Invisibility and Disappear, is the hero under the effects of these spells allowed to pass through monsters like Veil of Mist?


The book of instructions say a hero cannot move through monsters unless the EWP allows it.
Does the spell in question refer to this rule, constructing an exception to it for the spell's effect?
If not, then the general rule remains unchanged.


I concur with Knightcrawler, and also from a logical standpoint I think we can agree that "disappeared/invisible" does NOT mean "immaterial" which would mean one could pass through stuff. Like Pass through Rock would grant.
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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby lestodante » Tuesday October 23rd, 2018 1:07pm

wallydubbs wrote:Spells of Protection rarely come in handy in the Original System, as there are a limited number of enemy spell casters. But I was wanting other people's opinion as well...
Thank you for any opinions.


My opinion is that Spells of Protection and Revelation are really worthless. Only Spells of Darkness can be a good alternative, otherwise, chose your sets from the original 4 elements!
If your wizard player will get more experienced and feel the need of some news, gift him with one of the 2 sets above, in addition to the other 3 he already has.
They are not too dangerous for the evil wiard player but can add some variety and are a good reward for the frustrated wizard that normally can only see other heroes update themselves.


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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby wallydubbs » Thursday October 25th, 2018 10:17am

knightkrawler wrote:
wallydubbs wrote:But the rules are rather unclear on Invisibility and Disappear, is the hero under the effects of these spells allowed to pass through monsters like Veil of Mist?


The book of instructions say a hero cannot move through monsters unless the EWP allows it.
Does the spell in question refer to this rule, constructing an exception to it for the spell's effect?
If not, then the general rule remains unchanged.


Well the spell does not necessarily refer to the rule, but the Veil of Mist spell uses the words "The hero may move 'unseen' through spaces occupied by monsters." While under the effects of the Invisibility and Disappear spells, they would technically be 'unseen.' However this would make these spells more potent if they encapsulated the VoM power.

Since I've bent the rules on a few occasions, if they attempt to pass through monsters while Invisible they'll have to roll a combat dice and if it's a skull they'll bump the monster and fail to move through him.
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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby wallydubbs » Thursday October 25th, 2018 10:46am

lestodante wrote:
wallydubbs wrote:Spells of Protection rarely come in handy in the Original System, as there are a limited number of enemy spell casters. But I was wanting other people's opinion as well...
Thank you for any opinions.


My opinion is that Spells of Protection and Revelation are really worthless. Only Spells of Darkness can be a good alternative, otherwise, chose your sets from the original 4 elements!
If your wizard player will get more experienced and feel the need of some news, gift him with one of the 2 sets above, in addition to the other 3 he already has.
They are not too dangerous for the evil wiard player but can add some variety and are a good reward for the frustrated wizard that normally can only see other heroes update themselves.


Spells if Revelation? Is that what they're called in the European circuit? They're Spells of Detection here; although Clairvoyance is essentially useless I can see some heroes hungry for the Treasure Hoard spell, while Future Sight can also come in handy.

Well you see, about the Wizard upgrade, I tend to leave it to the heroes: since mind points don't often come into play in the Original System I've added a clause that Mind Points = spells.
1 - 3 MPs = 0 sets of spells
4 MPs = 1 set of spells
5 MPs = 2 sets of spells
6 MPs = 3 sets of spells
7 MPs = 4 sets of spells
This would give tremendous importance on the Talisman of Lore, as it adds 1 MP to whomever wears is. Most heroes give this to the Barbarian, which is fine, he needs the defence against magic, but now the heroes must decide if they're willing to sacrifice a set of spells for the Barbarian's mental defence.
A +1 to the Dwarf's MPs would make him eligible for spells, but I made the rule that he can only cast Earth spells in such an event, it is thematic for a dwarf that way.

Some might say this makes the heroes too powerful, but as Zargon I allow my spell casters extra spells from other expansion sets as well. Plus I've upgraded the Treasure deck as well and there are 2 Poison cards from Frozen Horror, so if the heroes end up losing mind points they potentially lose a set of spells too. I think it evens out. Some quests will be easier while others are harder.
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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby Anderas » Thursday October 25th, 2018 11:05am

I am thinking about this, too.

What do you do about this:

The wizard takes the Talisman of Lore, worst case the Version with 2 MP and adds two spell sets.

Then the Quest begins.
And he hands it over to the Barbarian.


How do you react?


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Re: Questions on Expansion Spells (WoM and MotM)

Postby wallydubbs » Friday October 26th, 2018 9:41am

Anderas wrote:I am thinking about this, too.

What do you do about this:

The wizard takes the Talisman of Lore, worst case the Version with 2 MP and adds two spell sets.

Then the Quest begins.
And he hands it over to the Barbarian.


How do you react?



Yes, I've considered this as well. The Wizard would be giving up a mind point, thus taking him back down to 6, he would therefore have to discard 1 set of spells used or not.
I've also added cards to the Treasure Deck as well, drathe had posted expansion cards that fit Keller's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord, such as more treasure, holy water, another hazard and nothing. I've also included some cards from Wizard's of Morcar (Zargon) and Frozen Horror (discarding the potions of warmth and charm); the Frozen Horror has a poison card, which the heroes roll a combat dice for and may lose a mind point... the same applies as giving away the Talisman of Lore, discard a set of spells.
Same for facing Borokk in Keller's Keep, he attacks mind points, if he attacks the mind of the Wizard or Elf they lose spells.
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