How do you handle Fear vs Courage

[arch8ngel]

That would probably be my choice for a house rule -- Fear and Courage, separately, work as stated on the card, but combined simply cancel each other out, regardless of casting order.

[devarionarias]

3 attack dice always for me.

I like The Admiral's interpretation where courage is always considered to add 2 to whatever the heroes current attack dice are set as long as the hero has a monster in their line of sight.

The effects cancelling each other out is simple and makes sense, but on the other hand, a wizard who just cast one of his only 9 spells for the quest getting cancelled just after one turn with no effect might be frustrating. If you rule it this way, then the hero has a chance to roll and save out of the fear effect and gain the greater effect of courage on themselves at full strength before the monster perishes.

[Jalapenotrellis]

The effect should be applied in the order they are cast. Fear then courage is 3. Courage then fear is 1. If one ends before the other and spell conditions are still met, there is no cancellation, just application of the spell under current conditions.

[wallydubbs]

As written, I'd say, YES... but I'm tempted thematically to say NO. It's something I can't decide on until I read others opinions.

Wouldn't it be easier to say that Fear and Courage cancel eachother? I.e., if a Hero is affected by one and gets the other spell cast on him, both spells are gone?

Going by the definitions of Fear and Courage (polar opposites), they don't actually cancel eachother out. More often then not, they coexist. To quote Ned Stark, in a sense, "it is the only time a man can be brave (when they're afraid)."
The two spells in the game do not necessarily have opposing effects. Courage adds 2 attack dice (lasting until line of sight is broken) and Fear reduces attacks to 1 dice (until the hero overcomes with mind point rolls).
A Dwarf with a battle axe and Courage fights with 6 combat dice and only 1 with Fear.
Yet if they are cast on the Wizard with a staff (worth 1AD by NA standards) respectively the wizard is up to 3 with Courage, yet remains at 1 with Fear.
In the case of the Dwarf, he loses more then he gains, yet with the wizard, there would be no point to even cast fear.
If they were indeed opposites the effect would be the same invertedly. So it seems as if they can both apply at the same time, but the more potent would be the one most recently cast.

On the other hand, the simplest resolve is that they would cancel eachother out. For this I cite the external spells in Wizards of Morcar, Earthquake and Stone Wall, in which the quest book reads: "if the Earthquake meets a Magical Wall, both spells are cancelled and the pieces are removed from the board."

I'm fine with the effects of Courage and Fear acting upon one another without canceling eachother out. There is no footnote, unlike WoM. So I guess this is something the Evil Wizard player would need to decide for himself.

Does the hero still have Courage if he overcomes Fear? If so, then does the hero still have Courage if he is under the "Command" spell?

[mitchiemasha]

The effect should be applied in the order they are cast. Fear then courage is 3. Courage then fear is 1. If one ends before the other and spell conditions are still met, there is no cancellation, just application of the spell under current conditions.

Ok... that thing's happened again. We already know the details of how everything stacks up and how the words mean what they mean, possible interpretations, etc etc. The point Maurice made "wouldn't it be easier" is what we're focusing on. We've moved passed debating the correct understanding of the situation and attempting to achieve a resolution, regardless to interpretation.

Edit: specifically for resolving other issues that people have come to realise.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Feels like opening an old wound but...

If, on a given turn, I am under the effects of the fear spell and so my standard 3AD had been reduced to 1AD but I then drank a potion that states that it increased my attack dice by 2 then would I have 3AD that turn?

- Yes because 1+2 = 3
- No because I'm still under the effects of the 'Fear Spell' that states an absolute of 1AD

Interesting debate on literal, official interpretations but for ease of playability I am just going to state in my house rules that casting Fear on someone under the effects of a Courage spell neutralises the Courage effects and vice versa, the two emotions do indeed co-exist, but a person is courageous when they dominate their fear and fearful when it dominates them.

I will also be rewording Fear to remove the absolute aspect for clarity...i.e. instead of fear reducing attack dice to one, it would reduce attack dice by one*

*One because my courage spell (see entirely separate debate on this one) increases AD by one so they are now opposites.

[wallydubbs]

I have to agree that it depends on the order to which the spells are cast and potion drank.
If you are under the spell of fear and then drink a potion of strength, the logic is sound 1 + 2 = 3.
The same applies if Courage was cast on top of fear.

But if Fear is cast over a hero with Courage, back down to 1. Courage could reemurge if fear is broken with a mind point roll on 6 and still be active if there are monsters still present.

[lestodante]

last one cast or drunk changes the effects of the previous ones

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Offence Disclaimer: Apologies in advance if anyone feels that I’m explaining this in a very simplistic manner, it is solely because it is a complex problem so I have to break it down into simple chunks for my own brain, so I explain it in the way I understand it.

Earlier someone used the BODMAS example, and I think this usefully illustrates the dilemma but I’m not sure that it is the solution

2+3x4

Is an example of an apparent dilemma, do you read it as;

2+3=5 5x4=20

OR

3x4=12 12+2=14

As 20=14 is not true, then we have an apparent dilemma.

The apparent dilemma is resolved by the presence of the BODMAS rule, then tells you how to handle this situation so there is no confusion.

What we have here to two equally contradictory statements

• Hero with 3AD attack under the influence of Courage Spell – attack with +1AD
• Hero with 3AD attack under the influence of Fear Spell – attack with 1AD

But what we don’t have here is a BODMAS style rule that tells us how to resolve this.

The suggestion to use ‘apply the effects sequentially’ makes perfect sense logically and is a good resolution, however it is important to note that it is A resolution, not THE resolution as, as far as I am aware, that instruction doesn’t exist within the HeroQuest canon (apologies if I have missed it) so it is a sound house rule to resolve the dilemma.

I like the Courage and Fear cancel each other out approach, I think that it allows a ‘Duel of the Spellcasters’ effect with the Wizard potentially casting Courage on the Barbarian with the intention of releasing him into a pack of monsters, only for Zargon to counter it by casting Fear

That said I accept that this solution is only a partial one, it resolves the specific Fear v Courage dilemma but doesn’t help with similar situations such as a Hero under the influence of a Fear spell that then quaffs a potion giving him +1AD

Absolute vs Relative

Also covered earlier in the topic is the ‘absolute’ versus ‘relative’ debate, the Fear effect of reducing AD to 1 is absolute ‘1’ whereas the Courage effect is relative ‘+1’ and you cannot apply a relative number to an absolute one, or an absolute one takes precedence and similar arguments.

For me all numbers are relative (relative to zero) 1 being 0+1 and so on so I’m not convinced of the usefulness of this argument. Shortswords give you 2AD ‘absolute’ but a Courage spell still adds 1AD ‘relative’ to make 3…Chainmail gives you 3 DD, a shield gives you +1DD so together you have 4DD…
Delving into the dilemma, the problem arises not because of relative or absolute but because of the fact that pretty much everywhere effects are given as +1, +2, -1 i.e. fixed values (which can be written as 1, 2, -1 if you prefer) but the Fear effect is variable.

The Crux

Reducing your AD from whatever their current value is to 1 means subtracting 0 or 1 or 2 or whatever, which is a variable rather than fixed amount. This is the crux of the problem how can you stack modifiers if one of them is variable, a maths example as we seem to love them, resolve this, what is y: 2+x=y

I prefer A resolution that address this core problem and would recommend changing the fear spell to reduce AD by 1 instead of to 1

If that makes it too weak in your opinion, you could reduce AD by 2 or 3, or DD by 1, 2 or 3 as well, the possibilities are endless (and whilst we are at in you could restore the chance to break the spell at the moment it is cast rather than only on subsequent turns like other similar spells…)

[IamGozer24]

The Admiral's argument was that, based on a regular hero attack of 3 attack dice
First Fear, then Courage = you attack with 3 attack dice
First Courage, then Fear = you attack with 3 attack dice, for some reason that I really really don't understand...

My argument was that the result may be different depending on the order.
First Courage, then Fear = you attack with 1 attack die
First Fear, then Courage= you attack with 3 attack dice

Fundamentally different views on how card effects are handled.

By that logic you can't raise you defence dice with chainmail in the US version if you already have a shield or helmet, and if you have both it would lower it from fout to three.

Fear is a base stat of 1, courage raises it by 2 so you get three attack dice, it makes no difference what in order they're cast.

Uh that is not what Plate Mail or Chain Mail does in ANY version of the game. What version did YOU have?