EU vs. NA rule comparison

[Kurgan]

The NA version gives the Wizard's Staff, which while not super powerful, it's still a 2 combat die diagonal attack (granted, no different than the generic Staff in the EU version, but still). But other than a pile of daggers he can throw, he isn't much for straight up fighting. In a situation where all of the other Heroes permanently die except the Wizard, and he can't use the Spirit Blade to win... I just pity the player who allows that situation to occur.

[Jalapenotrellis]

The NA version gives the Wizard's Staff, which while not super powerful, it's still a 2 combat die diagonal attack (granted, no different than the generic Staff in the EU version, but still). But other than a pile of daggers he can throw, he isn't much for straight up fighting. In a situation where all of the other Heroes permanently die except the Wizard, and he can't use the Spirit Blade to win... I just pity the player who allows that situation to occur.

Our group buys a pile of daggers because they don't see the purpose of most of the Kellar's Keep potions. Gives the wizard a lot more utility for combat (but not as much as just having a crossbow, which is way better).

[Zenithfleet]

I don’t get the NA change that blocked wizards from using the Spirit Blade. That means they would be completely useless in fighting any monster that is not affected by spells or anything other than a Spirit Blade. That’s just kinda bonkers. Either that or they need an alternate “spirit blade” type weapon for Wizards.

I suspect it comes from the old D&D principle that magic-users don't use swords, or indeed anything but a dagger. (Have they never heard of Gandalf?)

Same with being able to kit out the Wizard with Borin's Armour and Orc's Bane in the EU version. I don't think you can do that in the NA edition.

And if you look into the implied, but never overtly stated, connection between Mind Points and spells, it's an easy step to determine that if the Wizard has the Talisman of Lore and increases his Mind by 2, he could take two extra sets of spells. Like so:

Mind 1-3 = no spells
Mind 4 - 1 set of spells [Starting Elf]
Mind 5 - 2 sets of spells [a good spot for a custom Warrior Priest aka Cleric, methinks]
Mind 6 - 3 sets of spells [Starting Wizard; Elf with Talisman]
Mind 7 - 4 sets of spells
Mind 8 - 5 sets of spells [Wizard with Talisman]

Of course it's also implied that to cast spells, you need some kind of 'spellbook' or other item, just like the classic D&D magic user. Again, it's not made obvious, but the Wizard and Elf somehow have their spells taken from them in Legacy of the Orc Warlord and find them in a cupboard with all their other equipment. This suggests that the game assumes they have some kind of physical item on their person required for spell-casting. Like an 'Elemental spellbook'. It's an easy step from there to putting other spellbooks in Quests for players to find, e.g. a 'Defensive Magic' spellbook for the Wizards of Morcar spells, or a 'Time/Illusion' book for the NA Elf spells. Also an easy way to prevent the Barbarian or Dwarf from casting spells even with the Talisman--either because they don't have a spellbook, or they can't read...

Oops, bit of a digression there...

My understanding is that in D&D magic-users eventually become very powerful after levelling up a few times. But in HeroQuest there's no level system. Or rather, new Equipment and Quest Treasures are the game's simplified version of 'levelling up'. (Instead of gold earning you experience that eventually increases your stats, gold IS your experience, since you get it from going on adventures and you use it to improve your stats directly via equipment.)

So if the Wizard can't use certain special items in HQ, then once he's purchased the few items he's allowed, he effectively can't level up by HQ's simple definition.

No wonder NA players think the Wizard sucks. He starts out lowly in the EU version too. And his reputation wasn't helped by kids who first played as him in 'The Trial', when you're not supposed to use magic because it's a tutorial game, despite it being a tough Quest that works better if you allow magic. But he's pretty cool once he gets some special gear.

[Kurgan]

Many of us have come up with our own upgrade systems including for the Wizard (including myself). There's no restrictions on Magic in the NA version. You get all your abilities right from the start.

[Oftkilted]

Many of us have come up with our own upgrade systems including for the Wizard (including myself). There's no restrictions on Magic in the NA version. You get all your abilities right from the start.

The issue isn’t what they’re getting to start out with.

It’s what they can get down the road. Wizards have the same core spells throughout their adventures without any kind of an upgrade path.

[Kurgan]

Right. Different spells (via WOM) but never more than 9 spells and no upgrades for those spells in the official rules.

Although I use the base of the NA rules, my Wizard gets upgraded attack/defense (Wizard's Staff uses black dice, Wizard's Cloak substitutes 1 Green Die) and to many of his spells after completing 3-5 Quests ("Champion"). He can sacrifice spells to summon an Elemental at Knight (10-14 Quests completed). My basic Wizard also gets 2 random potions between Quests (and 1 random potion deck draw when searching an Alchemist's Bench for treasure) and can restore an unused spell (or draw a random spell scroll) when searching a Sorcerer's table. Like the Elf and the Barbarian, I've also given a similar Artifact to the Wizard and Dwarf (2 Body points and 1 Mind point).

I also have a secondary Armory for the Wizard that's in early stages...

Is this better than giving the Wizard the Spirit Blade, Orc's Bane and Borin's Armor? Decide for yourself.

[Zenithfleet]

Another random point of interest in the EU rules I just noticed: determining what's visible.

The 2nd edition EU rules distinguish between

a) visibility for purposes of placing doors, models, etc. onto the board

and

b) visibility for purposes of spell-casting and missile weapons.

Significantly, models don't block other models from being visible when placing things onto the board (so every monster in a corridor is placed at the same time). But models do block other models if you're trying to hit them with a spell or a crossbow bolt. Unless they're in the same room, in which case everyone is visible to everyone.

Also, visibility has nothing whatsoever to do with searching. If a monster is in the same room or passage, or adjacent to you (e.g. through a door), you can't search.


The 1st edition / 'Premiere edition' EU rules (on which some of the non-English language editions are based) are much less clear. They only seem to discuss visibility when talking about spellcasting. They also let you search if a monster in the same passage isn't visible to you, implying that having another hero between you and the monster would allow you to search.

I think they did a good job clarifying how it all works for the 2nd edition English EU edition.

[Oftkilted]

The other key piece is that in the EU version every monster is visible in a room. You can’t block line of sight in a room, only in hallways/passages/corridors. (Ergo you can’t search for traps/secret doors in a room with monsters.)

Line of sight blocks exist only in corridors.

[Zenithfleet]

The other key piece is that in the EU version every monster is visible in a room. You can’t block line of sight in a room, only in hallways/passages/corridors. (Ergo you can’t search for traps/secret doors in a room with monsters.)

Line of sight blocks exist only in corridors.

Yes indeed.

The 2nd ed EU visibility rules are clean and straightforward and easy to use.

The 2nd ed EU rules about placing and removing trap tiles, on the other hand...

Actually, on that note--the EU rulebook says 'The Dwarf may automatically remove any trap tile he is adjacent to'. But his character board says he can 'remove any visible trap in the same room or passage'. Seems like a contradiction.

We've always pretty much ignored what the character board said and gone with the rulebook. I usually forget it says something different on the Dwarf's board, because the information on those things is so basic I rarely glance at them.

[Oftkilted]

I ran into a difference that I hadn’t been paying attention to between 1st and 2nd edition EU on the Treasure Cards.

In the 1st edition, gold is put back into the treasure deck at the bottom of the pile after being revealed, and potions are returned to the deck once used.

Which encourages the use of potions in hand as they get added back into the deck during the adventure. Depending on how much the players search could mean that multiple healing potions or heroic brew are found in an adventure.

This is different than 2nd edition as players aren’t directed to return potions and gold to the treasure pile. They’re only directed to return the “bad cards”.

This gives players a relatively constant ~1/3 chance of getting a bad / nothing result, in comparison to 2nd EU and NA.

The deck also isn’t shuffled before pulling a card, as it is in the NA edition.

If I were looking to make his a more board-game casual play, returning the cards to the deck and shuffling them would make for an interesting difference. I think that adding them to a “to be shuffled back into the deck when the treasure deck is empty” would also be a solid randomization option to keep folks from counting cards till the next heroic brew.

Shuffling the cards before draw when working with the full deck would also do similar. Hmm.