EU vs. NA rule comparison

[Oftkilted]

So I guess I'm confused then about the (non-Alchemist Shop) Potions "expiring." Where exactly does it say they have to be discarded if not used between quests for the EU version?

It’s covered in the “Between Quests” section on p.15. Here’s the logic and page info is as follows for the EU version:
- A normal (non-quest) treasure card is pulled from the deck for a hero and the steps on p.14 would be followed for treasure: we then follow the rules for Treasure (p.14) “Treasure Cards: Some of the treasure cards are gold or jewels. The player who finds one of these should should record the value of the treasure on his character sheet. The card is then discarded. It is not returned to the treasure card pile.”

There are two kinds of “good” treasure cards, gems/jewels/gold and “Liquid type treasures” those include potions and holy water. The ‘monetary cards’ have directions to add the value to your character sheet and then discard the card. The liquid and potion cards do not. IE they would be kept by the player until used, and then the card is discarded.

At the end of a quest players would then follow the directions on the “Between Quests” section on page 15.
“Between Quests: If your character survives you may keep him and use him again in subsequent quests. In this case, you may keep any Quest treasure cards you have found, and you may spend any treasure recorded on your character sheet to purchase better equipment (armour, weapons, and so on). You may not keep ordinary Treasure cards.” (emphasis on the important bit)

Key here is that potions/liquids are “ordinary Treasure cards” and not “Quest treasure cards”. So they would be discarded back into the treasure deck to be used again in the next quest.

[Kurgan]

I'm coming away with the notion that the EU version is much more different than the NA version than I initially thought! What I play today is the NA version, with a few bits of content borrowed from the NA (and the Premiere Edition). Sounds like more than a fair number of players do the same with the EU (2nd) Edition.

Ah, thanks! Any rationalizations for this game mechanic are after the fact, of course.

Now that I'm getting used to the different terminology ("Quest Treasures" in the NA version just means anything specific to that particular quest, as opposed to here where it is synonymous with "Artifact" since there's no label text on the back of these cards in the EU edition) I can see what you mean. "Artefact" being a fan mod...

As you say...

[Oftkilted]

There is an interesting note that NA specifically calls out how to handle potion cards.

In the NA rules, potion cards are explicitly written down on your character sheet. “Record any gold coins or potions on your character sheet.” P.16 NA version

It then goes on to say in the ‘What happens between quests’ section on p.23: “Important! You keep any treasures found and take them with you on your next Quest.”

The EU version specifically call them out as “Quest treasure” but the cards don’t have a special label on them. They just use the ‘fancy book’ back. And in the rules it lists it with an upper case ‘Q’.

I actually feel that needing to write down the potions on your character sheet is counter productive, and that probably shouldn’t be done until the in between quests section, because then you don’t need to look them back up or pull them out of the deck (or have the potion card rules written down as well).

[Kurgan]

Honestly when we played, we always hung onto the Treasure cards, but I see what you mean. Just like gold, you don't hang onto it, you discard it. Some of the more complicated Potions might require more notes, but otherwise it saves you having a steadily growing (and possibly unmanageable at a certain point) pile of cards in front of you. Same thing with the Equipment. I think the cards are cool, but for my purposes when I use them (as a mod, obviously, much like the "Potions" and "Scrolls" decks) with NA, I just have them take a look at it, record on their sheet, and discard (or hand back, as the case may be).

For some players, it's just easier to remember what you have if you have the card sitting in front of you. But other people forget to cross off the item once they use it.

Originally of course there was no "card" for the Alchemist Shop potions, so those you had to record as well.

[Oftkilted]

Apparently the North American edition was also the “HeroQuest: ‘Potion Hoarder’ Edition”

It really begs to have the entire set of rules broken into sections and codified for differences ... then we could do the ‘choose your own rules set’ and have it create up a rules doc with your chosen rule set .... hmmmm ... I wonder if I could do that as an epub3....

[Kurgan]

There's probably already a Hero Quest Wiki out there someplace but I bet it's not that detailed!

I want there to be a rule and a card for everything...

[Zenithfleet]

'He's dead Jim, roll up a new character' in the EU version is oddly far more reminiscent of old-school D&D, on which HeroQuest is based, than the American edition for the homeland of D&D.

Speaking of which, one more thing I noticed about searching for treasure in passages in the EU version:

The 2nd edition EU says that after a character is eliminated (killed), another player can pick up their equipment and gold by searching for treasure in the room or passage where he died.

So it looks like searching for treasure in passages is still implicitly allowed in the 2nd edition. There's just a minor legalistic snafu about whether you're supposed to draw a treasure card if there's nothing there, which there usually isn't. I would say the spirit of the rules is 'yes'.

There's also no restriction on how many times anyone can search for treasure. It occurs to me that if potions are always discarded at the end of each Quest, multiple unrestricted Treasure searches are far less abusable, because the only thing you can hoard for the future is gold (and you'll hit traps and wandering monsters too of course).

Of course all this brings us back to the old 'how do treasure chests work?' problem. By searching? Or by physically standing next to it and opening it?

In the 2nd ed EU version I think a lot of the confusion stems from the first Quest being The Trial, in which you're not supposed to search for anything (because it's an introductory game for new players), but which still has treasure chests, and players have to 'ask to look in the chests'. Which they would instinctively do by moving up to them and 'opening' them. And then keep doing that in later Quests.

It's funny how I used to incorporate a lot of NA rules, but now I'm leaning more and more back toward 'the EU wasn't so shabby after all'. I just think we suffered from Monopoly syndrome, in that we were mostly kids when we learned the rules and didn't quite interpret everything correctly. Some of the flaws I used to see in the EU version turn out to be my own childhood house rules that stuffed up balancing mechanisms I didn't notice were there, like the 'discard potions' thing. Maybe it's better called the Free Parking Money effect...

We really ought to have had Chaos Spells and bosses with more Body points, though!

(Quick terminology notes for the EU edition: 'Eliminated' is used for 'killed'. 'Evil wizard player' is used instead of 'Morcar/Zargon'. 'Players', 'characters' and 'character players' are often used instead of 'Heroes'. Gives things a slightly different feel. 'Quest Treasure' is used instead of 'Artifact', and there are only five of them--all in the base game, none in the expansions--which makes them feel super-duper special: Wand of Recall, Borin's Armour, Orc's Bane, Spirit Blade and Talisman of Lore. None of this wishy-washy one-use-only Artifact nonsense! )

[Oftkilted]

The “player treasure recovery on searching” can be negated by the Evil Wizard claiming the treasure with a monster.

Chests obviously have to be opened. “You search a room” Yep it’s a room and there’s a chest in the middle of it. You can’t stand in a corner and poke at it with a stick from across the room.

[Kurgan]

"Eliminated" sounds much more gamey than RPG adventurey. You get used to the terminology and style after awhile. I totally agree about the "Monopoly syndrome" kids learn the rules thing. It was rather difficult for us to understand "roll 1 red die for each of his mind points" thing for Spell use at first. We also tried to bend the rules with Armor usage all the time.

I explain the Treasure searching NA mechanic like this... yes, your character doesn't "move" (he moves right onto the trap square when disarming though!), but this action is him searching the entire room, which would include any bits of furniture. That's why if there's a trapped bit of furniture (including a chest), if you didn't search for (and disarm) any traps first, then you'll end up stumbling upon it and paying the consequences.

The BQP stuffs this up a bit by actually putting a perfectly safe Treasure chest in a room, and then putting a row of Trap TILES around it (which would only make any sense if you were using rules that required you to stand next to the Chest to 'Open' it). Usually the Quest notes indicate "if one searches for Treasure without first disarming the trap..." Or what if you have multiple trapped furniture in the same room? Then with that you'd have to disarm them both before searching for Treasure or your unprotected search is going to spring one or both of them and harm you (do Furniture Traps end your turn? that would answer that question).

And after searching, you quietly return to your original square, with your loot in your hands (and possibly some wounds too if you forgot to disarm the trap first!).

[The Admiral]

We all play so differently.

I allow all potions found to be kept. The potion is written on the sheet and the card discarded. However, my treasure searches are very restrictive. Only one search per room, so if there is a specific item there, including rusty weapons, then there is no card for that room. This, combined with no shopping or recovery of BP's and spells between sequential quests balances thing out. Discarded cards do go back in the pack though at the end of each individual quest.

This, combined with EW cards, speeds up play immensely.

My EW cards are not drawn as quickly as the rules for them indicate though, and it is directly linked to the size of the party. The more Heroes/henchmen, the faster the cards are drawn, and the more I can have in my hand. For example, a party of 4 Heroes with 0-2 henchmen would get 1 card per 4 turns and allow a max hand of 4.