Searching with monsters present--allowed!

[Bob-Bob]

Hate to break up the current conversation, but I thought I'd point out that the Japanese rules do allow the heroes to search for treasure and traps even while monsters are present! However, in the "expert" rules (used for Quests 9-14), it proposes the "cannot search while monsters are present" rule as an optional rule, and points out that it makes the quests tougher for the heroes.

[cynthialee]

I would rule that if they search in spite of a monster being present then the idiot should not get a defense roll when attacked.

[Jalapenotrellis]

I play by the rules as listed in the NA official rules book.

1. Search for treasure--requires "only if the room is uninhabited by monsters" (clear as day); only chest/furniture traps are sprung if searches for treasure are done prior to searches for traps.
2. Search for secret doors--requires "As a Hero, you can only search for secret doors if there are no monsters VISIBLE TO YOU" (and therefore, if in a corridor and you don't have line of site to a monster ahead of the barbarian in front of you, you could search for secret doors in that entire corridor because it says "Zargon will then disclose any secret doors located in the room or corridor that you are in..." So, a secret door could be revealed while a monster is present in the corridor behind that monster if the searching hero is behind a friendly character and line of site is blocked.
3. Search for traps--requires "As a Hero, you can only search for traps if there are no monsters VISIBLE TO YOU"
Since visible is still defined by the rules of sight in this game (spell casting), you could hide behind the barbarian in a corridor and search for traps behind a monster ahead of you that is still alive because you can't see him right now. It does NOT say HOW Zargon will then disclose any traps located in the room or corridor that you are in or how he lays them out (by line of site only or by full corridor) as it is clearly defined for secret doors.

Having played the first 7 quests, sometimes a monster is clearly placed right in front of a trap, therefore limiting the ability of heroes to search for traps until the monster leads them into it. However, smart heroes could just search for traps by standing behind the leading character and doing that as their action, therefore revealing any traps behind the sneaky monster trying to lead them into one.

This is my understanding of how it is written.

Meanwhile, if a trap is on the opposite side of a door threshold and searching for traps, you cannot search for it without being in the room, therefore guaranteeing that trap being sprung.

Under the 'Looking and Opening Doors' section on p 13 of the instruction manual, it says that looking only reveals what is in line of site if in a corridor, whereas, a whole room is revealed when a door is open regardless of line of site. Under "How Zargon Reacts to Hero Movement" it specifically states "When a Hero "looks" down a corridor, place on the gameboard any closed doors, blocked square tiles, and monsters that are directly within the Hero's line of sight. (see page 15 "SEE" for clear line of sight.)

It makes more sense that they mean that you couldn't search for secret doors or traps if there is a monster in the corridor, but as things are written, it seems more nuanced. This could mean the difference between falling into a trap or having it easy mode where you just have to remember to stand behind someone else in order to search for danger or secrets. One way punishes bold moving toward a monster, where you are screwed if Zargon plays correctly, whereas the other requires teamwork that people could just get used to to avoid danger altogether. In other ways in this game, such as traps beyond a door that are not able to be disarmed, it seems the nuanced approach is what is intended?

Any others who play by official rules, please verify my logic! Thanks (by the way finally getting a group together to play a campaign from scratch after last group fell apart)

[Jalapenotrellis]

Answering my own question:
I think since Searching for Traps and Secret doors is line of sight driven, you are only revealing traps and secret doors within line of sight. Therefore, if someone wants to 'game the system' by standing behind the barbarian in the above example and 'search the corridor for traps' then he can only see traps in the line of sight that lets him search; he could not see the traps beyond the monster or the barbarian because they are out of line of sight. The barbarian obviously couldn't search either because he sees the monster. By definition, you couldn't search ahead of you if there is a monster there because it is within your line of sight.

[Maurice76]

1. Search for treasure--requires "only if the room is uninhabited by monsters" (clear as day); only chest/furniture traps are sprung if searches for treasure are done prior to searches for traps.
2. Search for secret doors--requires "As a Hero, you can only search for secret doors if there are no monsters VISIBLE TO YOU" (and therefore, if in a corridor and you don't have line of site to a monster ahead of the barbarian in front of you, you could search for secret doors in that entire corridor because it says "Zargon will then disclose any secret doors located in the room or corridor that you are in..." So, a secret door could be revealed while a monster is present in the corridor behind that monster if the searching hero is behind a friendly character and line of site is blocked.
3. Search for traps--requires "As a Hero, you can only search for traps if there are no monsters VISIBLE TO YOU"
Since visible is still defined by the rules of sight in this game (spell casting), you could hide behind the barbarian in a corridor and search for traps behind a monster ahead of you that is still alive because you can't see him right now. It does NOT say HOW Zargon will then disclose any traps located in the room or corridor that you are in or how he lays them out (by line of site only or by full corridor) as it is clearly defined for secret doors.

Quite frankly, I feel that these official rules are in logical contradiction with one another - especially for the reasons you state. They just make no sense. I imagine the Search action requires some peace of mind, while roaming about the immediate area, examining anything of interest as you go, without risk of getting interrupted by receiving the business end of an axe or sword in your back while doing so. You could say that the Barbarian shields the other Heroes, who can then search - but this would then imply that the search could only be performed up and to the Barbarian, not in the section between the Barbarian and the monster up ahead. Things get quite convoluted and ugly fast, if you start to include such exceptions and special cases, as you need to start keeping track of which sections have been searched and which are still potentially dangerous.

It's much simpler to simply read all of those rules as "only if the room/corridor is uninhabited by monsters", instead of the "visible to you".

Under the 'Looking and Opening Doors' section on p 13 of the instruction manual, it says that looking only reveals what is in line of site if in a corridor, whereas, a whole room is revealed when a door is open regardless of line of site. Under "How Zargon Reacts to Hero Movement" it specifically states "When a Hero "looks" down a corridor, place on the gameboard any closed doors, blocked square tiles, and monsters that are directly within the Hero's line of sight. (see page 15 "SEE" for clear line of sight.)

This raises another question, that's not clarified by the rules - and one that I only ever considered now, when reading this: while in a corridor, do you have to reveal all monsters that are behind the nearest one? You can't pass monsters, after all and other characters block line of sight to anything beyond them (preventing ranged weapon or spell attacks against them that require line of sight), so would you even be able to see them? You might argue that you can see a bulky Chaos Warrior behind a slim and short Goblin, but how about the other way around? What if it involves an Ogre, which even blocks any passage, even to friendly creatures?

I'd argue for simplicity in this case as well, revealing all monsters in the corridor. Only hard walls block line of sight in that fashion.

[Jalapenotrellis]

Regarding revealing, I always thought that part was fairly clear--reveal a whole room, but only reveal by line of sight in a corridor. That's how I've played and it seems to support the idea I now have that traps beyond the monster can't be revealed either since you can't see them yet. In actual play testing (when I was playing the line of sight reveal in a corridor), it does throw the players off sometimes when they get surprised by a monster or another way to go after thinking they've discovered everything. It seems to work out at least through quest 7 in my experience.

Edit: I also accidentally played the only reveal by line of sight in a room (until rereading the rules). That also can throw players off with not knowing what to expect in that room, but it also weaken's Zargon's ability to play monsters against the Heroes, because he can't move anyone that's not on the board yet, allowing players to just kill one monster at a time by line of sight in a room. So I can see why revealing a whole room is needed.

[Maurice76]

Regarding revealing, I always thought that part was fairly clear--reveal a whole room, but only reveal by line of sight in a corridor.

That's not what the Dutch rules state. Literally translated, the Dutch rules say the following:
"When a door is opened, the Evil (Wizard) immediately places everything on the board, that is on the map for the opened room or corridor (except the traps and secret doors)"

There's a more generic ruling slightly before that section, which states the following:
"When you first enter a new room or corridor, you have to allow the Evil (Wizard) enough time to consult the Quest Book and to place all visible monsters and furniture on the board."

These two contradict eachother on what to do when a Hero rounds a corner in the corridors and reveals a new corridor, versus what to do when a Hero reveals a new corridor by opening a door leading into it. We've always played it to reveal everything in the corridor, as stated for the second case.

Update: This is also the ruling as present in the first edition of the UK version of the Game Rules. The second edition doesn't specifically mention what to do with corridors, but it does describe more extended on what to do when a room is revealed. The NA rules are somewhat clearer but even they aren't explicit in how to place down monsters in corridors as the EW; at best it's implicit as it states something about "looking" through an open door or into a corridor and seeing whatever is in line of sight - which basically contradicts the way rooms are revealed, as there are commonly tiles that aren't in line of sight, which are revealed anyway, when opening a door to a room.

[mitchiemasha]

Yeah... that was another US edition attempt to fix a non issue that made it worse.

There was no need for this extra 'seeing' 'looking' BS. Just a simple fix to the bad choice of wording in the original would of done. The "all visible monsters" with visible becoming the potential word to confuse. Simply reveal the room or corridor.

[SirRick]

I always felt the NA rules were more polished for the most part but I have also noticed certain things they tried to "fix" often bring up other issues, or cause more confusion.

I like to refer to both the UK and NA rules if I have a question about something, and usually you can determine the intent by reading two different points of view.

[j_dean80]

I play NA rules and I reveal entire rooms or corridors. As far as traps and secret doors I wouldn't allow a search unless all monsters in that vicinity are gone. Anything else pollutes the vanilla rules and makes it confusing and hard to keep track of.