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Borin's Armor clarification

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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Ethica » Monday May 27th, 2013 3:40pm

Do you think my point not salient, or are you considering it?


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby chaoticprime » Monday May 27th, 2013 4:01pm

You did not make a point. You ignored mine, and then conjectured a fantasy.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby chaoticprime » Monday May 27th, 2013 4:32pm

Using your logic, Orc's Bane and the Spirit Blade should be better than the Battle Axe. They allow you to use a shield, but their additional damage is only 50% relevant, at best. Borin's armor allows a character to afford a battle axe, and still roll four dice for defense. The most significant measure of accomplishment in the game is gold. You expose yourself to the greatest amount of risk to get it, and the gains it gives you are simply better than those you are just given. Obtaining 1125 gold to get six defense dice from plate mail, a shield, and a helmet is simply harder to get.

If the writers of the game wanted Borin's armor to be the best armor, they would not have specifically written for it to allow set defense dice and instead have worded it to grant extra defense dice. They cared enough about that rule to put the word extra in bold characters on the armory, and they cared enough to italicize exceptional circumstances for use on five other artifacts--the Wizard's Cloak artifact even specifically calls into reference the rules regarding extra defense dice. Your argument is that its the best armor because it is, and that possibly the makers of the game just forgot to include the text making it thus.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby bastianbux » Monday May 27th, 2013 7:02pm

Well, the opinions on this issue are clearly widely divided. Is there a poll function on this board? Might be fun to see what a poll shows for this one.
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby chaoticprime » Monday May 27th, 2013 7:21pm

bastianbux wrote:Well, the opinions on this issue are clearly widely divided. Is there a poll function on this board? Might be fun to see what a poll shows for this one.


So, you want to see a pole, do you?


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Ethica » Tuesday May 28th, 2013 2:23pm

chaoticprime wrote:Using your logic, Orc's Bane and the Spirit Blade should be better than the Battle Axe. They allow you to use a shield, but their additional damage is only 50% relevant, at best.


That's not a logical extension of my argument. However, The Spirit blade is better than the battle axe, because it is unique, the witch lord cannot be defeated without it. Orc's Bane may be crap unless you are on UK rules in which case it can be used by the wizard, unlike the battle axe, so to him Orc's Bane is better. The US version stamped that out (wrongly I would say).

chaoticprime wrote: Borin's armor allows a character to afford a battle axe, and still roll four dice for defense. The most significant measure of accomplishment in the game is gold. You expose yourself to the greatest amount of risk to get it, and the gains it gives you are simply better than those you are just given. Obtaining 1125 gold to get six defense dice from plate mail, a shield, and a helmet is simply harder to get.


So you're argument against Borin's Armour being the same defence as Plate Armour is that it makes the game easier because it is given away free? If that is the case then I reiterate my previous comment that because <Borin's Armour + Shield = Chainmail + Shield + Helmet> Then why bother having Borin's Armour at all, why not just put a suit of chainmail in that cupboard.

chaoticprime wrote:If the writers of the game wanted Borin's armor to be the best armor, they would not have specifically written for it to allow set defense dice and instead have worded it to grant extra defense dice. They cared enough about that rule to put the word extra in bold characters on the armory, and they cared enough to italicize exceptional circumstances for use on five other artifacts--the Wizard's Cloak artifact even specifically calls into reference the rules regarding extra defense dice.


Whether you accept the following or not I will repeat it because I see the relevance of the point made earlier that - The UK version came out first and improvements and clarifications were added to make the US version (and the updated UK version). It looks to me like they simply didn't convert Borin's Armour from set defence dice when they made the Armoury, if you look on the UK cards you'll see all the suits of armour have set defence values. I don't accept that they chose to downgrade Borin's Armour in the US version or the UK second edition, if they were looking to amend the card at all they certainly would have written "may not be used with the helmet." on it, just like all the other special dircumstances you mentioned. The fact is the only text they felt the need to add was "Unlike normal plate mail this mysterious, ultralight metal armour does not slow down it's wearer. May not be used by Wizard" Surely this text reinforces our argument that the movement penalty (and the fact that it is free, I grant you) is the only difference between it and Plate.

chaoticprime wrote:Your argument is that its the best armor because it is, and that possibly the makers of the game just forgot to include the text making it thus.


It's the best armour because it says on the card "allows the wearer to roll 4 combat dice in defence" and does not say "However, because it is so heavy, you may only roll 1 red die for movement while wearing it."

I'm not going to argue with you anymore because if I still haven't convinced you then it's possible that I don't understand your point and you're probably tired of repeating it. I think I do but maybe I don't.

I bet the makers never thought 20 years later people would be arguing about such a small detail in their game.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby Daedalus » Tuesday May 28th, 2013 5:03pm

chaoticprime wrote:
bastianbux wrote:Well, the opinions on this issue are clearly widely divided. Is there a poll function on this board? Might be fun to see what a poll shows for this one.


So, you want to see a pole, do you?

(snigger)

Actually, there is a poll function available for posting new topics. The Poll creation tab is found at the bottom of the page, under the Save draft, Preview, and Submit buttons.
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby chaoticprime » Tuesday May 28th, 2013 7:26pm

Ethica wrote:
chaoticprime wrote:Using your logic, Orc's Bane and the Spirit Blade should be better than the Battle Axe. They allow you to use a shield, but their additional damage is only 50% relevant, at best.


That's not a logical extension of my argument. However, The Spirit blade is better than the battle axe, because it is unique, the witch lord cannot be defeated without it. Orc's Bane may be crap unless you are on UK rules in which case it can be used by the wizard, unlike the battle axe, so to him Orc's Bane is better. The US version stamped that out (wrongly I would say).

chaoticprime wrote: Borin's armor allows a character to afford a battle axe, and still roll four dice for defense. The most significant measure of accomplishment in the game is gold. You expose yourself to the greatest amount of risk to get it, and the gains it gives you are simply better than those you are just given. Obtaining 1125 gold to get six defense dice from plate mail, a shield, and a helmet is simply harder to get.


So you're argument against Borin's Armour being the same defence as Plate Armour is that it makes the game easier because it is given away free? If that is the case then I reiterate my previous comment that because <Borin's Armour + Shield = Chainmail + Shield + Helmet> Then why bother having Borin's Armour at all, why not just put a suit of chainmail in that cupboard.

chaoticprime wrote:If the writers of the game wanted Borin's armor to be the best armor, they would not have specifically written for it to allow set defense dice and instead have worded it to grant extra defense dice. They cared enough about that rule to put the word extra in bold characters on the armory, and they cared enough to italicize exceptional circumstances for use on five other artifacts--the Wizard's Cloak artifact even specifically calls into reference the rules regarding extra defense dice.


Whether you accept the following or not I will repeat it because I see the relevance of the point made earlier that - The UK version came out first and improvements and clarifications were added to make the US version (and the updated UK version). It looks to me like they simply didn't convert Borin's Armour from set defence dice when they made the Armoury, if you look on the UK cards you'll see all the suits of armour have set defence values. I don't accept that they chose to downgrade Borin's Armour in the US version or the UK second edition, if they were looking to amend the card at all they certainly would have written "may not be used with the helmet." on it, just like all the other special dircumstances you mentioned. The fact is the only text they felt the need to add was "Unlike normal plate mail this mysterious, ultralight metal armour does not slow down it's wearer. May not be used by Wizard" Surely this text reinforces our argument that the movement penalty (and the fact that it is free, I grant you) is the only difference between it and Plate.

chaoticprime wrote:Your argument is that its the best armor because it is, and that possibly the makers of the game just forgot to include the text making it thus.


It's the best armour because it says on the card "allows the wearer to roll 4 combat dice in defence" and does not say "However, because it is so heavy, you may only roll 1 red die for movement while wearing it."

I'm not going to argue with you anymore because if I still haven't convinced you then it's possible that I don't understand your point and you're probably tired of repeating it. I think I do but maybe I don't.

I bet the makers never thought 20 years later people would be arguing about such a small detail in their game.


You are wrong. I proved that already. Carry on.


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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby TMU » Wednesday May 29th, 2013 1:11am

If you children do not stop fighting I will ask uncle Sjeng to delete this topic :P
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Re: Borin's Armor clarification

Postby chaoticprime » Wednesday May 29th, 2013 2:41am

TMU wrote:If you children do not stop fighting I will ask uncle Sjeng to delete this topic :P


Alright then, for the sake of granting clarity of information to the OP, here are the points.

Mine is that the card works exactly as written; applying the same text format used by the Armory and Artifact Cards.

Or Ethica's point, that "what if" the creators of the game made a mistake on the one particular card, and that its description as "plate mail" supersedes any other formatting, despite only the US version of the card doing so.


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